Hi,
As a user of this publication i was kind of pleased to hear that Flight had taken over the reigns.
I've noticed in the last few editions some errors are creeping in , ok not really errors but clearly data that wasn't being updated. As a reference source of which there is little comparison its a shame that some cheaper 'spotter based' books are now clearly more accurate.
Another worry of mine is now its backed by Flight how will the data be used/compared with the data source you use for the World Airline Directory that you publish in Flight weekly. In the past this was a good quick guide, but for the last couple of years its not been so reliable.
My work is mainly centered around the CIS & former states so to see the Antonov Airlines has 2 An-22 in operation is a bit worrying, As much as spotters are quite geeky, they do seem to have a better network of information regarding this area.
I would be interested in any feedback as to the plans for JP.
Regards
Sergey M.
Sergey,
Many thanks for your comments.
With regards to the error that you mentioned contained in the Antonov data, I can confirm that this was not a data error on the part of Flight's research team; the problem was 'behind-the-scenes' (so to speak) in some of the coding that was used to create the text for the World Airline Directory. Although the error should have been spotted and corrected before going to press, it somehow slipped the net.
As for the future of JP Airline Fleets, I'm sure you can appreciate that keeping records for tens-of-thousands of aircraft as current as possible is not an enviable task. We have a highly-skilled and dedicated team of researchers working on this project, but we are only human so the occasional mistake will slip through sometimes.
However, we can't do it without the help of the enthusiasts out there. This is your opportunity to help us keep JP Airline Fleets as the definitive source for fleet information.
Ultimately, please help us to help you. Our data is your data and if for some reason it is incorrect, then we need to know about it so the problem can be rectified.
Titch
Vidi, Vici, Veni. I saw, I conquered, I came.
Hello,
Does anyone know why the 2008/2009 JP Airline Fleets release is running late? According to the Buchair website it says due out 1st July. I ordered my copy from Aviation Worldwide NZ, so can't wait and looking forward to receiving my copy.
Cheers,
Andrew.
Just received my copy - what a disappointment! In a desperate move to undo all the good work by the Swiss publishers these last forty years, Flight seem to have re-sorted every single fleet in alphabetical order of aircraft types. Then registration order (ish). For example, Continental's 737s are now sorted by full N number instead of by "last three" fleet number which matched the delivery order. Those who have used the book as a reference before will find it much more difficult as the sort is illogical and unwieldy. IT MAKES NO SENSE.
That coupled with random advertising throughout, even where it interferes with the flow of the fleets and pages (Southwest Airlines stretched to the previous page to accommodate the ads!)
There are publications just as informative and accurate available. This year's JP has been weeks later than normal, and in my opinion is a very poorly produced book this year. I will check carefully next year before buying - I have had every edition since 1980, but 2008/9 may well be my last.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH, FLIGHT. Somebody there had better contact me because I want a refund. . .
I have to agree. The sort order within each airline makes no sense at all. In addition, the quality of the photo section has taken a nose dive. Many of the photos are dark, washed out, etc. The choice of subject matter seems a bit suspect as well. Past editions always had top quality photos - hopefully this is a reproduction/printing issue that can be corrected.
And while we are on the subject of accuracy - Enough already of "Boeing(McDonnell-Douglas)" etc.
For goodness sake, DOUGLAS built the DC-3, DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7. Boeing had nothing to do with that. Apparently Northern Air Cargo operate BOEING(DOUGLAS) DC-6's. UTTER RUBBISH.
McDonnell-Douglas built the DC-8, DC-9, MD-80, DC-10 and MD-11.
Boeing may have finished off a few MD-80s and MD-11s (Well, they finished them off completely in the end, along with Long Beach!) and yes, they did build the MD-95 and (cleverly) re-named it the 717, BUT THEY SHOULD NOT BE SHOWN AS THE MANUFACTURER OF ALL THOSE "DC JETS" and piston transports.
You might as well go to Duchess of Brittany on P.187 and re-style their single De Havilland DH.114 Heron aircraft as an AIRBUS(BRITISH AEROSPACE)(BRITISH AIRCRAFT CORPORATION)(HAWKER-SIDDELEY)(DE-HAVILLAND) Heron. Get it?
Ian McAllister - London ATC Flight Plan Supervisor / London Flight Information FISO
Dear Flight research and publishing team,
I was extreme happy this week to lay my hands on (and have the smell of) the new 2008/2009 JP edition, I treasure all publications since 1971! Publication was late, but hey, just have to change my yearly schedule. From the outside everything looked so familiar but its all about content. My first shock was the new sorting, no longer on MTOW but on alphabetical manufacturer! PLEASE can we go back to the old sorting which served our needs for so many decades! so we have a proper overview per airline on short/medium/long/ultraling haul fleets!!! At least do some proper research amongst all users and may I suggest a 'poll' on this subject first on the FlightGlobal site pleeaase!
The second shocker which nocked me out last night (could not believe it when I woke up this morning) is the fact that this edition is NOT AT ALL up to date! (you state on page i 'correct to May 2008'). Litterally 100ers of fresh aircraft orders are missing (when I do my best it could be close to 1000!). Just to start with Airbus (Nov07-Feb08) orders, Emirates, Oman Air, Ethiad, Hong Kong Al, AirBlue, Bangkok Aw, TAM, Egyptair, Qantas, Vietnam Al, Yemenia, Libiyan...I can name 10s of other airlines (and orders for other manufactures) which future fleets are not up to date. Whats going on? did I, my employer and all my aviation friends pay E.70 for 'the' book which is a 6 months update on the previous year?
I can see with all the orders space in running out in the JP but for sure there are means to limit this without sacrifying the high value of our JP, please ask us for our ideas, and for sure I will be one of them.
Frank, Ulrich and Ernst, whta happened to out beloved aviation bible??
Awaiting your reply and release-date and supply of a corrected 2008/2009 JP Airlines Fleet reference book.
Richard (still angry)
As a usually rather benign (lazy) and kindly Moderator on this site, may I just say that, yes, the above ATC gentleman has a point which we have all noted over the decades of take-overs. However, from a legal and corporate standpoint, the Company that takes over has a long-term obligation to provide product support for the airframes still operating. And the Regulators are bound to place on their Civil Registers the current designations of the types. I would like to claim that I am the most pedantic person in aviation; but am now wondering whether this accolade may have moved on from an old pilot to a much younger Air Traffic Controller chappie? (some of my best mates have been ATC fellahs, by the way!). I wonder whether Ian's point may have been made just as effectively, or more so, by the use of a somewhat gentler, less angry and frustrated tone or tenor? Perhaps more in the style of the helpful, kindly and friendly tones we are so used to when communicating with ATC when in the sky......
Dear Richard,
As an avid spotter, I fully agree with you on your first paragraph! Why FlightGlobal changed the sorting of the fleets in the new JP Airline Fleets? Since I know part of the three guys you mention, I know, that they developped a sytem over the years, which served fully to the spotters! They told me, that they spent hours and hours on research of the MTOW.
In your second paragraph you mention something about missing orders. I did not yet had the time to check this personally, but let me know, what is not correct with the Airbus orders, with e.g. TAM? This, I would be very interesting to me, right at the moment!
Jonathan
dakota67 . . . So, noting your point on how aircraft appear on the actual country registers I selectad at random a Northern Air Cargo DC-6, N6174C, ran it through a web search of the US FAA database and came up with . . .
DOUGLAS. No mention of Boeing.
As for angry and frustrated - absolutely, and rightly so I think. This formerly excellent, accurate and well ordered publication was something that was not broke. Flight have DEFINITELY "fixed it" ! I am definitely expecting more comments echoing my views on the subject.
I am compiling a list of errors. Shall I put it here on the forum or send it staight to Flight?
Cheers, (The normally very pleasant) Ian Mc.
I have recently received my copy of the JP 2008/2009 and was deeply disappointed!!! Having listed the fleets in alphabetical order is complete and utter laziness, which completely destroys the readability of the whole book! In a fleet list having a Boeing 747 in front of a Fokker 50 makes no sense! Having the Continental Airlines fleet in numeric order where ship no. 735 is listed before ship no. 710 is completely pointless!
I don't know whether this was the work of the Flight team or the Buchair team but he who pressed the 'Sort in alphabetical order' button, should not be allowed to participate in the production of what was once the bible of aviation!!
Having used the book for work and aircraft spotting over numerous years, I can absolutely guarantee that if these grave shortcomings aren't sorted out quickly the once loyal following will disappear very quickly and purchase other better publications.
Sort it out please, before it's too late!!
Cheers.
Sample errors (spent exactly 5 minutes randomly turning pages)
ABX Air P.268 - First some DC-9s. Then some DC-8s. Then hey! some more Dc-9s.
easyJet P.188 - Newly delivered A319s G-EZDJ/K/L randomly sorted part way down the "on order" section.
Ryanair P.154 - 737s noted correctly sequenced up to EI-DYK. Then 4 spaces for "on order". Then EI-DYL through -Z. Then more "on order"
Eastern Airways P.187 - Jetstream 41 registrations G-MAJA to -JM, then -JU, -JV, -JP, -JT, -JO ! Somebody needs more Sesame Street.
Five minutes - Four glaring errors. Anybody do better? There should be a prize for the person who spots the best duff entry in the book . . .
Cheers, Ian Mc.
Hands up all those who will trade their book for a second edition done properly?
Come on, Flight - I suggest a re-sort followed by an immediate reprint, then ask some regulars/professionals to proof read it. Then, to preserve sales offer anyone with a copy a free trade in, or the book is finished. As a field estimate I would guess sales will drop 75% next year without that commitment.
I am not being nasty or vindictive, this is a purely pragmatic view. If you produce a duffer which displeases your customers, you have to go back, get it right, and re-approach them with a solution.
Ian Mc.
I haven't received my copy in the mail yet. The 2008/2009 edition sounds like a big disapointment.
All,
Regarding the presentation of this year's edition, we would like to take this opportunity to outline why some of these decisions were made.
The sorting of data in registration order
It is well-known that the majority of people who purchase JP Airline Fleets year after year are enthusiasts, spotters, registration collectors, etc.
Looking at the competition in the current market, it is evident that the generally accepted layout for spotting publications is to have aircraft sorted by Country, Airline, Type and Registration. A decision was made by Flight management to try something a little different this year. We were very aware that there would be comments regarding this and it was not a decision that was made lightly. However, out of the thousands of customers that rely on JP every year for the latest information on the world's fleets, many have already commented on how the change has been for the better.
The issue regarding the presentation of the Boeing/Douglas aircraft data is a long-running one and has been present in the JP publications since the 1999/2000 edition. So far, this is the first time that it has been addressed as an outright problem by one of our readers.
This was the final edition of JP that was entirely researched and produced by the original Swiss team, as explained in the foreword on page iii of the book. Ulrich Klee, Ernst Sommer and Frank Bucher, who created this book, have been responsible for the 42 years of impeccable, painstaking research that has gone into making the JP Airline Fleets brand what it is today and are held in high regard by their customers around the world for continuing to produce what is arguably the greatest annual aircraft listing available.
Images in JP 2008/09
There have been comments made regarding the choice of images selected for this year's book. Due to an issue with the printing house responsible for producing this latest edition, the images contained within the centre pages appear slightly dull with less contrast than is normally associated with photos in the book. This was due to circumstances beyond our control.
If you are able to contribute high-quality images of rare or unusual aircraft, please feel free to upload your images into the AirSpace galleries.
I have to agree that this year's book is a total disappointment, primarily as a result of the resequencing of fleets into an order which is not at all helpful, as many of the contributors have already pointed out.
Furthermore, in previous years, the arrival of JP has delivered a wealth of information not previously available from other sources, but the ever-lengthening time between last revisions and actual publication, coupled with the immediacy of information available from other sources including the internet, puts this edition to shame. It is so out of date in so many respects as to be virtually useless as a point of reference.
This is the 30th successive edition that I have purchased, but I don't think I shall bother next year - which is a shame as we used to handle the UK distribution of JP many years ago! Hopefully Flight will manage to find a way to make me change my mind, but there are certainly a number of less expensive and more up to date sources of the information in JP,
You say "Be assured that when the first edition of JP is released by Flight in 2009, there will be a marked improvement in image and priniting quality." Your words, my italics. That's a good start then!
I really appreciate the amount of work involved with keeping a publication like the JP up-to-date. Hence even though this edition is less up-to-date than last year's edition was at the same time, that's not really too bad considering the editorial changes.
However, if listing aircraft fleets in the order of country, airline, type and registration is the accepted general practice in order for aviation professionals and enthusiasts alike to be able read these publications, then simply saying 'we felt like changing our layout' is a very risky approach... As to some people liking the new layout, I wouldn't want to to cast any doubt on the moderator's words, only there's been no positive feedback on this 'official' JP forum.
As a reader of the publication since 1975, originally as an enthusiast and later for work-related purposes, I won't be buying the book again unless you go back to the original 'the way it's meant to be' layout.
another dissapointed regular jp buyer.i have purchased every jp since 1979 and feel the same as most of the posters on this forum.the quality of printing and photos seem poor,confusing layout of fleetlists,and on my copy 18 pages in the french/england section have been croppedd wrongly cutting off most of the information, a mistake i thought would have been spotted before sending to a customer.no t very impressed when paying nearly £40 for a book!there are now more accurate and cheaper manuals such as air britain fleets available and i am now wondering wether to bother buying jp next year.
simon butler
The last three digits of the registration of the Continental 737's does not always match their delivery order. One example of this is N13750 which was actually delivered between N27724 and N39726 with another 11 aircraft being delivered after it, which had fleet numbers lower than it.
Titch,
I think you will have to agree that the weight of opinion is for an immediate reversal to the accepted format, and there are some very disappointed customers out there. At least two regular JP users I work with in ATC want to see my copy before they decide whether to take a new edition this year or choose an alternative publication. I hope you have taken in my comments re- sales next edition if this is not fixed. I really don't think at this stage that "We will be better by 2009" will do. By then the damage might well be irrevocable.
It is a combination of the accuracy and up to date nature of the data, combined with the presentation, photo quality and familiar format that have kept the loyal customer base willing to pay £45 for this book.
Listening to and absorbing all the comments and responding in such a concilliatory tone is great. But nothing you have said actually helps when I have been sent a second rate publication for a decidedly first class price! What about a second edition then? The way I see it, you have exactly two choices, both of which are going to cost you financially:
1. Re-print immediately, accepting that as the publisher you will have to bite the bullet and lose money in the short term. This would not be false economy as you would be satisfying the customers that FlightGlobal is serious about this You would be able to keep the very strong brand loyalty intact. I would be offering the second edition at cost to holders of the current new book. (And not just because I have got one!)
2. Wait till 2009 by which time, even if the book is 100% better, half the customers will not pre-order, but will wait till they can have a proper look at a copy to check it before buying. The other half won't wait, but will start using another reference source. The result of that would be uncertain sales, but definitely lower pre-orders, and I am sorry to predict, the end of JP Airline Fleets International as a leading brand.
Please get in touch with me directly if you wish. ihmcallister@aol.com or ian.mcallister@nats.co.uk . Although I do have some serious issues with the new book, I would very much like the opportunity to make some more constructive comments.
This appears to be a case of, 'if its not broken don't mess with it ' and clearly JP buyers are not pleased, however as someone who has a copy of the new JP , is not a spotter and has not in the past used it other than as a reference of last resort,: I would like to put forward a suggestion which will save ink (yes its allways about money with ES) and suggest that an improvement would be to normalise the data.
By this I mean remove redundant data; why is it necessary to duplicate aircraft models in the pages ad nauseum?
For example whats the point in having Boeing 737-832 and CFM56-7B26.... (dont ask me to count them) repeated to the point of giving the reader a headache, surely it makes more sense and enhances readability by only printing unique data like serial numbers.
Just a thought that might help everyone
Hi Ian,
I will contact you directly and hopefully hear your more constructive comments for future editions. I understand your frustrations, but Titch has been as honest as possible in answering your concerns and be assured that the decision to change the ordering wasn't taken lightly.
I am the site manager and although i didn't put the book together directly, i saw the great care and effort that was made in producing the book. Remember that Ulrich Klee, Ernst Sommer and Frank Bucher all still produced it (for the final time), so although the data is ordered slightly differently, they have still put in the hard yards to create the book and its information.
All we can do now is look to the future and '09 and beyond. I genuinely hope that you and the other posters who are unhappy with this year's book will stick with us and help contribute to next year's book, by uploading images to this site (that may be added to the book) and contributing to the JP Forum with suggestions and conversation.
We want to create an area for you, and hope that you stick around to join in!
Kind Regards
Maverick (site manager)
AirSpace - more than just hot air
I really appreciate the hard work that goes into the production of the book but when I as a customer pay 45GBP for the book I also expect it to keep its promise. For my part I will think twice before ordering the next edition and I know that many others will aswell.
With all the complaints on this forum the ball is in your court, but if all you want to do is say "next year will be better" then I get very worried for the future of this once fine publication, because you're basically admitting that this year's edition isn't very good.
As pointed out by others, why break the trust of your customers?