So with both these aircraft displaying at Fairford this weekend i thought i would ask the question. Which one would win in a dog fight?
There is a lot of talk about the F-22 but my money would be on the Eurofighter in a visual range dog fight. Beyond visual range then i would give it to the F-22. They are both excellent dogfighters though. Apparently one F-22 is said to have defeated four F-15s in one simulated dogfight. However one Eurofighter T1 ended up in a chance dog fight over the lake district with two USAF F-15Es and beat them. Also one Eurofighter took on three F-16s and beat them.
Victor: So with both these aircraft displaying at Fairford this weekend i thought i would ask the question. Which one would win in a dog fight? There is a lot of talk about the F-22 but my money would be on the Eurofighter in a visual range dog fight. Beyond visual range then i would give it to the F-22. They are both excellent dogfighters though. Apparently one F-22 is said to have defeated four F-15s in one simulated dogfight. However one Eurofighter T1 ended up in a chance dog fight over the lake district with two USAF F-15Es and beat them. Also one Eurofighter took on three F-16s and beat them.
Its gotta be the F-22, because I don't like anything European!
F22 hands down, for such a big fighter its mighty impressive in the turn.
To add to Victor's statistics. I remember reading a couple of years ago that a RAF Typhoon outsmarted a F-22 over the Nellis ranges, but don't quote me on it. If that is the case then I'm going with Eurofighter. Another scenario, If it's not dogfighting but in ground attack role, then with Typhoon's capability in this area I think it will win hands down. Fast, good payload, and as previously stated by everyone manoeuverable.
F-22 still has a few issues to be tweaked I believe. Until then I'm reserving my opinion. I'm yet to be entirely won over by this beastie. Although this could change this weekend.
Remember USAF wanted the F-23, not the F-22!
Those going to RIAT might get a chance to find out as Max will be flying the F22 with a Typhoon
Hi,
Here's a BBC video of the F22 preparing for the tattoo.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7502739.stm
I reckon the video shows it is a step up from the Eurofighter. But I have been told by an RAF pilot that commercially the Raptor could be a white elephant. It costs so much to build that it is almost priced out of the market and so other countries are beating a path to get the next best thing - the Typhoon. My friend went further and said that lockheed was building F22s far faster than they could be sold. Once the US orders have been fulfilled there is a big question mark over what to do with the production line. Could, of course, be nothing more than the pro-Typhoon lobby spinning the rumour mill but nevertheless it's a hot topic doing the rounds at the RAF.
Cheers...
F-22 is only going into US service, i.e. not being sold outside the US. One reason is they don't want the technology to fall into the wrong hands. Of course price tag is a huge factor.
Had the chance when the rain and lightning had cleared to see the F-22 do its display rehearsal on Friday at RIAT. Very impressive, but still leaves me with the question would it be any good without vectored thrust? That is the key to the aircraft as well as its stealth quality.
The vectored thrust question is a good one. It would be interesting to know how much of an edge it actually created.
Victor:In that case with an RAF pilot on board (one is flying one of the three coming over) then i may just say the F-22 will have the edge but with a USAF pilot on board then it has to be the Typhoon!
F22A Raptors regularly train against aircraft equipped with HOBS and helmet mounted sights and Raptors regularly beat them as well, WVR. WVR engagements are not ideal. It can end up as a bit of a lottery. Both aircraft can shoot each other down or fly into each other if they are not careful. Although by some calculations the Typhoon was supposed to be marginally better than the Raptor on some measures of maneuverability, I think that DASS/PRETORIAN/PIRATE is much more important. Note, you don't hear any internet chatter about how many times the Raptor was able to trounce the Typhoon at long range. Probably because US pilots don't need to brag in this way.
It is very frustrating that both fighter programs are taking so long to get into Service. I hear that the Typhoon will not get Meteor or CASEAR until 2015!!! When will it get Storm Shaddow or Brimstone?
Significantly, the Typhoon was not even allowed to go to Afghanistan last year. Still, its not a bad air defence fighter and looks good at air shows.
Hmmm, I don't know about the Euro fighter being better short range. The euro fighter uses a multi channel pulse doppler radar. Which is a very nice radar. But the F-22 uses a phased array radar which is far better for long and short range. Giving it a decided advantage. it also allows the F-22 to actually use it's radar as a weapon, frying other enemy radar systems. Also F-15 pilots report with much frustration that close in and even head up they can not get radar locks on the F-22.
sorry I misspoke. I meant the F-22 has a active scan phased array radar.
From the story told earlier in the blogs by a USAF pilot, the use of thrust vectoring seemed to help the adversory when F15s fought Su30s that had it.
Anyway, I say Typhoon has F22 for breakfast and even saves some for its elevensies .
hmmm, I would like to know how a f-15 trained agianst a SU-30. since few of them have been produced so far
It was joint training between the Indian airforce and USAF, with French airforce Rafales in the vicinity. The F-15 drivers watched for the Sukhois starting to use their high AoA thrust vector manouvres and 'went high' at that moment.
It seems an aircraft would have to have very much greater than 1 to 1 thrust-weight ratio to take advantage of thrust vectoring. It needs to be able to keep up high acceleration during the manouvre.
The F-22A is currently the finest fighter money can buy. There is a quote by David Hamilton, Marketing Director stated (URL);http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1628463/postsThe F-22 and Eurofighter were not in the same league... Any further discussion on this subject is waste of time.... F-22 will always be the better fighter but Eurofighter will be the better multi role aircraft and will always be cheaper.A Typhoon Pilot Discusses His Efforts Against An F-22A (Post #126)http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/f-22-vs-12344-9.html#post351443> WW-2 <> drgondog <> Guys - I just got back from the 355th FG reunion hosted by the 355th FW at Davis Monthan. At Roll Call on Friday night at the O-Club the newly deployed Euro Fighter rotation of Brits were in full array and feisty - until the discussion of 'Say, how are you guys doing against the F-22?" "Well, if you can see the bloody thing you have a chance... not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us. The problem is the AAMRAM is up your ass long before you can possibly see it. Quite discouraging 'do' at Nellis, really." <POSTINGS ON "F-16.NET" -AN F-16C PILOT EXPERIENCE AGAINST AN F-22A -"VprWzl"Posted: Oct 01, 2006 - 01:21 PMTOPIC -"F-22 Raptor speed" (Pg #5)http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=77780&highlight=#77780Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flaghttp://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041831by By Tech. Sgt. Russell Wicke -Air Combat Command Public Affairs[An RAF pilot on an exchange tour with a F-15C against a F-22A.]There is an interview with a test pilot in the Typhoon Program, Craig Penrise in which he states, in an attack by the USAF & RAF, the F-22A would into enemy airspace before the rest of the attack package. Its unique capabilities would allow it to operate safely over enemy airspace. Later as the attack package approached, the enemy would scramble their interceptors. The F-22A would start killing the interceptors shortly after take-off, before they could form up. The interceptor force broken and not able to form a cohesive counter force would then have to face the Typhoons which would be top cover for the attack package.In other exercises, one F-22A went up against four F-16Cs and shot them all down. Another exercise a F-22A shot down five F-15Cs (not "Es"), in another exercise one F-22A went up against three F-16Cs with simulated HOBS missiles and HMDS. The F-22A (as usual) bounced the F-16s shooting down two and was in the process of shooting down the third one when they fired simultaneously, killing each other.There was a program shown on the History Channel, a program about the F-22 program and the first time the program was shown, it had a sequence with gun camera footage of a F-22A gun tracking of an Su-27! The sequence lasted about twenty seconds. You could see how much the Su-27 was using its rudders trying to evade but, the F-22A was able to keep the gun piper in the middle of the Su-27's fuselage, with ease. Unfortunately, the next time the program was on (more than four months later), the gun camera footage was replaced by an animation sequence and it showed the F-22A having a lot more difficulty in keeping the piper centered on the Su-27.
Eurofighter/Typhoon didn't go to Agfghanistan last year because it was not cleared for the ground attack role! The Wing Commander who said that after their last training sessions in the US was extremely premature in going public when he stated on his return to the UK that the Typhoon was ready. His bosses in the RAF were not best pleased with this!
Michael Leek
Typhoon its got a higher aerodynamic instability and therefore its easier to move about the sky
Good post, AVON.
The F-22 Raptor, imo, with EQUALLY skilled pilots, can beat the Eurofighter in WVR more so than the other way around. The F-22 has better radar (by far), better stealth (which still helps in WVR, since it's harder to lock onto...); the F-22 also has a higher Thrust to Weight Ratio (TWR) than the Eurofighter, so the F-22 can gain speed quicker than the Eurofighter when it might lose it in certain turns in dogfights.
The F-22 is simply the 'master of the skies' both in BVR and WVR. People should just suck it up and accept it. :)
Paul Metz said that the F-22 has an unstable design for more super-maneuverability. But, in the end, we've no way to check the wiring and insides of each aircraft to say which is more unstable by design...
Going by what's been said/shown above so far, I'd still go with the F-22 Raptor... any day of the week. :)
F-22 - king of the skies!
The F-22 has the highest TWR on any modern fighter today. No problem there. :)