There is a really interesting poll happening on the homepage of FG.com at the moment in reaction to the USAF pilot's vocal put downs of the SU-30MKI.
Interestingly the SU-30MKI has taken a massive lead, currently 58% of 1,849 votes. But what would be your Jet Fighter of choice if the world was going to end. The manoeuvrability of the F-22 or the classic F-15?Or would the Su-30 be your weapon of choice?
AirSpace - more than just hot air
The F15 countered with an immelman turn, good, but what was the Sukhoi doing in all that time?
Theoretically they should be fairly equal when using missiles (would depend on the particular weapon systems installed) but I'd bet on the Sukhoi if it came to guns.
SafirXP:but I'd bet on the Sukhoi if it came to guns.
Then you would lose your money because that was exactly how the F15 did manage to defeat the SU30 because other missiles were jammed and the Sukoi aircraft were relying heavily on the Cobra maneuvre. Incidentally, where does that leave the Typhoon? The Typhoon does not have thrust vectoring and cannot do post stall but does it have a gun yet? This has been going on again off again for years. When the Tiffy was going to Afghanistan the gun was reinstated as an operartional weapon but surely that was meant for ground attack and only one short burst with only some 59 rounds. I don't think the gun is available for air to air work.
Nice!! Where could I find out more about such one on one exercises?
So what advantage does thrust vectoring provide in the real world situations? All I've seen are amazing maneuvres on air shows. I'm guessing it should help it avoid missiles.
The story about the exercise in India was covered late last year in Aviation Week. Why don't you look up their website or simply google around. Again I repeat - the F15's beat the Sukhoi's in a straight forward dogfight with their guns.
What are the advantages of thrust vectoring in the real world? Good question! My flippant reply would be that it looks good at airshows. At Farnborough one year I talked to a Typhoon pilot who explained to me very clearly, just how easy it would be for him to shoot down an aircraft trying one of these ultra low speed maneuvers. I suspect that the real benefit of thrust vectoring is at very high altitute above 50,000 ft.
Here it is from a USAF F-15 pilot who flew Mach combat against both SU-30 and F-22. First hand experience and no BS. His assessment is fair and objective. Not from a "dummie like me."
Dumbkopf:Here it is from a USAF F-15 pilot who flew Mach combat against both SU-30 and F-22. First hand experience and no BS. His assessment is fair and objective.
Au contraire! What he really says is, that the Indian pilots don't know how to fly a fighter plane properly. Also he states, that the Indians are too stupid to use the thrust vectoring. He acted like a wrestler chestbeating himself there actually.
In reality F-15 fighters have a hard time against the Su-30MKI. You might want to read up about the "Ex Cope India 2004" or this 2002 American study: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-3313.html
About the F-22, well, there is nothing in the air that has been smoked by it despite it being on duty for over 3 years now.
But do those studies and excercises still hold true now, 5 and 7 years on?
On the other hand that American pilot did say that once the Indian pilots got the hang of their aircrafts capabilities things would go against the F-15.
Yes, I heard what he said. Fact is, these Indian pilots very well might have been over relying on thrust vectoring. He did in fact speak very highy of them overall. I do not have the impression he was chest beating. He is a red flag instructor and does posess a protracted knowledge base which exceeds the majority of bloggers. I read extensivly on Cope India 2004. At best---99.9% of these blogs are conjecture. Yes they did have advantages over the US pilots in that engagement. The situation at red flag was a bit different.
As for the F-22. It has been in Mach combat against F-15s---if I'm not mistaken some of which equiped with AESA RADAR. The F-22s Overwhealmingly won decisive victories. No---it has yet to see active combat; however it is the only true operational 5th generation jet figter in the world today. Yes it has single axis thrust vectoring but that is all u need. Break turns were always the manouverof choice in a to a combat. Personally---I dont think much of it myself (as many fighter pilots reported during US research projects---I did read tha but forgot where. I subscribe to the high energy tactic in air to air engagements. Case in point---Zero vs Hellcat. It will be iinteresting to see how this F-15SE performs in the Air to Air arena.
OF COURSE we are all entitled to our opinions here and for the most part these conversations are absolute nonsense---myself included. But, if I had to lay down a wager F-22 vs SU-30 my money is on the F-22.
All due respects ... Dumbkopf
Man the only reason I signed up to this forum is to prove you wrong. I am a Luftwaffe test pilot and over the years I have tested many fighters. The Su 30 MK can definetly beat any current 4, 4.5 American fighter jets (the ones whice are not upgraded from their origional design). F-15, F-15E, Eurofighter Typhoon have no chance agaist Su 30MK, MKI, or even the the origional 30. Actually you know, even F-16s wont fare well agaist Sukhoi according to me when I tested these aircrafts.
I have a link for you to read. Its not just some text, this is a news article: http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2004/06/30/54664.html
I HATE TO BUST SOME BUBBLES BUT..... this article was writen before the ROEs for Cope India were revealled!Cope India took place in mid-Feb. 2004, first press releases in mid-March, US Congress had hearings where USAF officers were testifying and then voted on funds for F-22A program during the summer. The following article from AW&ST came out months after the article referenced above. The AW&ST article came out 10/04/04 and was published on the I-net on 10/07/04. URL;www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1237790/postsDOES THIS STINK OR SMELL LIKE A P.R. SET UP???The USAF flew F-15Cs with the AN/APG-63(V1) radars to India for this exercise leaving the F-15Cs with the AESA (V2) radars in Alaska. India has an ACMI range purchased from Israel, who has a production license from Cubic Corp of Mass., USA. The instrumentation of the AMCI range is connected to mainframe computer yet, the use a PC to validate kills? Sounds like 100% verification is not really desired, the one thing the ACMI provides.There is a definite reason only the F-22A is listed as an fifth generation fighter, all the rest are 4th or 4.5 generation fighters.Uncle Bob, if you are using COPE INDIA as a reference then, your information is dated! If you are a fan of the low speed dogfight, the furball, etc. then the F/A-18, Su-27 & family, etc. are your type of fighter. If on the otherhand you are a pilot who treasures as much energy as you can keep, then the Typhoon, F-22A, etc. would be your best choices. In a close dogfight, if a Su-27/30 pulls a cobra and dumps their energy.... there are maneuvers that can take advantage of the Sukhois low energy state. The USAF's F-15Cs have worked with the F-22A and have learned counter-tactics. The F-22A can do any post-stall maneuver and not loose altitude like the Sukhois.The Su-30 makes great airshow exhibits but, give me the edge of Western avionics for actual combat both for detection and counter-detection. I am not putting down the Su-30MKI, I am saying the Typhoon and F-22 are far better in aerial combat.