Dave
Majumdar's aerospace blog on examiner.com illuminates some stunning omissions
in the US Air Force's upgrade plans for the Lockheed Martin F-22 fleet. My list
of highlights from Dave's recent interview with the F-22 SPO:
- The first 34 F-22s can not be
upgraded with the Increment 3.1 air-to-ground and electronic attack and
Increment 3.2 advanced air-to-air and networking upgrades.
- The next batch of 63 F-22s will
be upgraded to carry eight small diameter bombs, but they can only attack
two targets at a time. These aircraft will never be able to fire high off bore
sight missiles, which are swiftly becoming the standard for aerial combat.
- The final batch of 91 aircraft
are programmed to receive both the air-to-ground and advanced air-to-air
hardware, but these do not include helmet-mounted cuing, also standard kit
for latest-generation dogfighters.
on June 22, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply
WOW! I knew the AF had issues with the F-22 upgrade program but this adds fuel to the fire! It seems that I now have the answer to the question I posed on F-16.net this weekend....what does the F-35 have that makes Gates think its superior to the F-35 in some areas! It also explains some of the advertised kills against it. GREAT POST! Now wait for the F-22 fan club to come with the baseball bats!
on June 22, 2009 2:12 PM | Reply
please delete this post but you have to check this out Steve...
http://jalopnik.com/5298091/man-battles-nature-in-colossal-remote-control-air-battle
on June 22, 2009 3:13 PM | Reply
Stephen you left out some information about your highlights. For point number two Dave specifically mentions that while the block 30 (increment 3.1) jets do not have the ESMS that enable AIM-9X and -120D capability, they *are* looking at other solutions for adding those weapons; so never is a bit disingenuous. For point number three JROC did not asses HMCS as a core capability for the F-22 mission. On the F-16 boards Dave said that from his interviews it’s fiscal rather than a technical hurdle and in his article he mentions that HMCS may be added later.
Personally I think adding SDB, -120D and -9X is more important than a HMCS but the F-22 probably should get it in increment 3.3 or 4. I also think the USAF will eventually have to bite the bullet and move towards a common hardware configuration that enables all F-22 capabilities for the entire fleet; something along the lines of the F-15C MSIP program. This is particularly important with future weapons coming down the line such as JDRADM, LCMCM, SDB II etc. where the older block 30 jets won’t be able to employ them with out upgrade.
on June 22, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply
So is anyone just a little bit appalled that the majority of the US Air Force's premier air superiority fighters is not programmed for neither HOBS nor HMCS, and that's despite an $8 billion upgrade plan after investing $62 billion already?
on June 22, 2009 3:31 PM | Reply
"So is anyone just a little bit appalled......despite an $8 billion upgrade plan after investing $62 billion already?"
Not one bit. In fact seems about par for the course. I take solace in that foreign procurement is probably more screwed up than ours.
on June 22, 2009 3:57 PM | Reply
EG is correct when he asserts that it seems to be par for the course for industry to offer substandard products, specifically fighters, that offer a fraction of promised capability until later blocks, if ever. Let's start with Tiffy: even Tranche 3, unbelievable, may never get an AESA. It seems unbelievable that a supposedly 4.5 Gen fighter not only does not have AESA capability now, but that its contemplated next batches do not have one either. So long as that is the case, it will continue to be inferior to later F/A-18E/Fs and uprated F-15s. It is scandalous. Speaking of the Superbug, in addressing the original Bug's short legs, it continued a family tradition by thoroughly screwing up its wing/pylon design and delivered a product to the USN that continue to have range issues because in order to address a flutter problem, the designers developed the unbelievably asinine solution of canting out the pylons, increasing drag to such an extent that it not only adversely affected range, but reduced top-line performance to such an extent that the Superbug can be out-accelerated by an A-6 with one engine out. Then you have the Su-35 program or whatever its latest designation is these days (I don't keep track), which delivered an aircraft with Kleenex engines that seem to have a propensity to self-destruct without warning. And of course there is the F-35 program that is building a substantial number of LRIP aircraft when a fraction, and by that I mean like 2%, of flight testing has been done, and god knows what gremlins they will discover in the process (Superbug flight testing anyone?). At IOC, basically, industry is guaranteeing the F-35 will be able to take off and land. Any capabilities beyond that will have to await later blocks, and it won't be until about 2020 or so that the F-35 will deliver as advertised, assuming everything goes pretty much exactly as planned, and we all know what a good track record industry - be it American, European or Russian - has in that regard. Good luck everyone...
on June 22, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply
That is one way to sell airplanes...make the first bunch "obsolete" so they HAVE to buy more... A crappy way to do business.
on June 22, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply
That is one way to sell airplanes...make the first bunch "obsolete" so they HAVE to buy more... A crappy way to do business.
on June 22, 2009 5:28 PM | Reply
Obamanite,
I will not put all of this on the manufacturers. I hold the customer as accountable.
Set the capabilities
Set the design freeze date
Set a budget
Set a deadline and don’t change it!
Leave the contractor alone until they screw up.
The ARH is a perfect example not saying no to the customer.
The LUH is a perfect example of saying no to the customer.
on June 22, 2009 5:29 PM | Reply
Obamanite,
I will not put all of this on the manufacturers. I hold the customer as accountable.
Set the capabilities
Set the design freeze date
Set a budget
Set a deadline and don’t change it!
Leave the contractor alone until they screw up.
The ARH is a perfect example not saying no to the customer.
The LUH is a perfect example of saying no to the customer.
on June 22, 2009 8:52 PM | Reply
see Steve, I told you the bats would be out! Amazing! The AF has a problem and its the spiral upgrade program of the vaunted F-22! wow! now it all makes sense!
on June 22, 2009 10:10 PM | Reply
Stephen, I believe it is appalling but is all of this really news? Lt. Col. Michael Shower (Dozerf22) made all of this clear on his posting on the FenceCheck forums a few years ago (HMCS, HOBS, Aim-9X). He went into detail about this, too. AS BDF pointed out as well as DozerF22, it's all fiscal rather than technical. The irony is that Dozer, as well as other F-22 pilots all seem be extremely satisfied and confident with the F-22's current capabilities. The k/d ratio attained so far in exercises is no fluke. This however, will become food for the anti-F22 crowd...and for what we paid, rightfully so.
on June 22, 2009 10:29 PM | Reply
All of which ignores some significant facts.
Anyone that writes an article about the F-22 capability and fails to mention the AN/ALR-94 and how it operates with the APG-77 has a very weak grasp of the jets combat capability.
The F-22 can throw an AMRAAM up to 40-50% further than any one else = better no escape zone solutions. It will also throw a JDAM and SDB much further. Again this is important to increase survival.
If you are a B or C, model F-35, you may have left the deck that day without your gun pod. A gun which has less than half the ammo of an F-22. With the 7 and 7.5 G F-35B and C this is important because you aren't going to be carrying very many missiles as opposed to the 8 carried internally by the F-22.
The yet to be proven F-35 won't be able to go where the F-22 can. Super-cruise, extreme height and speed and better stealth quality are what belong to the F-22. This is also important in a advanced enemy air defense environment so as to do something as simple as ELINT-ISR (again AN/ALR-94 work)
Operations: USELESS DIRT 1 and 2 delayed money from the F-22 program upgrades years ago. Funny? What till the F-35 program suffers the same fate in a debtor economy/fed budget.
Growth Room. The F-22 has space in the nose for other kit.The F-35? Not so much.
One may want to consider how many hundreds of "mistake jets" the F-35 program will deliver with such minimal flight test effort to learn from. Considering that the program has already stated that getting first flight done on a jet and then having to put it back into the shop to have work done was a huge mistake, well, there you go. Hype over substance. Par for the arms industry.
on June 22, 2009 10:32 PM | Reply
How is that F-35 test flight program coming?
on June 22, 2009 10:55 PM | Reply
pretty dawg gone good! and with the support of the SecDef and the work of fine men in women in the AF, Marine Corps and Navy...not to mention LM! it will deliver capabilities out of the box that the vaunted, praised, worship at the alter, flying Budha, demi-god F-22 won't be able to. if you're truly concerned about US security against a first tier program then you need to get aboard the F-35 fan ship....
or you can get left on the dock looking slack eyed and silly!
on June 22, 2009 10:56 PM | Reply
not first tier program but opponent...
on June 23, 2009 1:56 AM | Reply
Why would the F-22 require a (HOBS) High Off-Boresight Missile Seeker or (HMDS) Helmet Mounted Display Systems when it already has a (HUD) Heads up Display and the majority of its kills are expected to beyond visual range? If you have to dog fight an F-22 you are doing something wrong!
on June 23, 2009 6:01 AM | Reply
EG: yes, I agree with you. But, as you point out, the manufacturer has got to learn how to say, "No, I can't do that." Problem is, there is usually no penalty for the manufacturer's arrogance in believing he can perform to an impossible standard. Truth in advertising, or something like that...
Solomon: I do not know if your latter comments were aimed at least partially at my own. We've crossed paths before, and you know well I am not a fan-boy of anything, specifically of neither the F-22 or F-35. I call them as I see them. I am, if nothing else, a skeptic. While I appreciate your (somewhat blind) faith in LM regarding the F-35, keep in mind that this is the same outfit that built the F-22 you so often deride. I hope just as much as you do that the F-35 performs as advertised. But there is NO reason at this point to have faith that this will be the case, when such storied manufacturers as LM and McDonnell Douglas (latterly Boeing) pretty much f-upped royally when it came to the F-22 and F/A-18E/F, respectively. It boggles the mind to think that a cadre of supposedly experienced, world-class engineers never envisioned the wing-drop flaw that bedeviled the latter, and subsequently came up with such a penalizing "fix" for it. As for the F-22, it should irk any objective observer to note that LM delivered some 100 airframes, at a cool $350 million each, that can't perform to the same standard, in some (highly important) cases, that other platforms at a fraction of the cost have no trouble incorporating (HOBS, HMD, ability to target multiple ground targets). As HerkEng wrote: "That is one way to sell airplanes...make the first bunch "obsolete" so they HAVE to buy more... A crappy way to do business."
on June 23, 2009 9:04 AM | Reply
All of which ignores some significant facts.
Anyone that writes an article about the F-22 capability and fails to mention the AN/ALR-94 and how it operates with the APG-77 has a very weak grasp of the jets combat capability.
The F-22 can throw an AMRAAM up to 40-50% further than any one else = better no escape zone solutions. It will also throw a JDAM and SDB much further. Again this is important to increase survival.
If you are a B or C, model F-35, you may have left the deck that day without your gun pod. A gun which has less than half the ammo of an F-22. With the 7 and 7.5 G F-35B and C this is important because you aren't going to be carrying very many missiles as opposed to the 8 carried internally by the F-22.
The yet to be proven F-35 won't be able to go where the F-22 can. Super-cruise, extreme height and speed and better stealth quality are what belong to the F-22. This is also important in a advanced enemy air defense environment so as to do something as simple as ELINT-ISR (again AN/ALR-94 work)
Operations: USELESS DIRT 1 and 2 delayed money from the F-22 program upgrades years ago. Funny? Wait till the F-35 program suffers the same fate in a debtor economy/fed budget.
Growth Room. The F-22 has space in the nose for other kit.The F-35? Not so much.
One may want to consider how many hundreds of "mistake jets" the F-35 program will deliver with such minimal flight test effort to learn from. Considering that the program has already stated that getting first flight done on a jet and then having to put it back into the shop to have work done was a huge mistake, well, there you go. Hype over substance. Par for the arms industry.
on June 23, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply
When F-22s are fighting the fight that they want, HOBS and the attendant hardware is essentially dead weight. AIM-120D is the big deal and you can bet that LM and USAF are not sitting on their hands on that.
Also, my guess is that the HOBS/HCMS/all-aspect IR for the F-35 is based in a very fervent desire for the F-35s to NOT get into turning battles. It'll be like the F-111, only with a radar missile. Tactics for air-to-air are probably going to revolve around how fast the F-35 can go in a straight line and how to use its stealth to skirt threats. They want to only fire AAMs off-boresight and RUN while the bandit is evading (and hopefully the bandits are also dodging the F-22s providing overwatch at 50K+).
on June 23, 2009 7:52 PM | Reply
ELP- This article is about upgrading the F-22. Pure and simple. I'm not critiquing the plane or its capabilities- I'm simply reporting exactly what the SPO guys said. It has nothing to do with the F-35. Once again, I'm not writing about the F-22's capabilities except as it relates to the upgrades.
I'm not sure how the ALR-94 is relevant in this case as it was not even mentioned as part of my interview with the F-22 SPO guys- perhaps, with you expertise you know better. of course. If I was describing the planes capabilities in general that might be something- read my earlier article with about the Screamin' Demons- that actually does deal with capabilities.
You do seem to have a some serious issues with the F-35. If you've read my article and still managed to pull something out about the F-35 (with the exception of the MADL) you have serious reading comprehension issues. Try not to let your zealotry cloud your judgement.
on June 23, 2009 9:05 PM | Reply
Oh, whatever. The first-off-the-line F-4 had no gun AND nowhere to put one. Yet--somehow!--the F-4 got a gun.
As BDF points out, this is not a technical issue. It's all about the Benjamins, baby. Although I like how Stephen's tune quickly changes from "ZOMG F22 IS TEH SUCK" to "wurr, why dint they do this FIRST" as regards a technology that didn't exist when the original specs were written. I'm pretty sure that five years from now he'll be posting rants about how the F-35 isn't equipped with antigravity engines...
on June 24, 2009 5:13 AM | Reply
Yea, but it sure puts on a nice demo at the air shows. It's just another example that proves the DOD has become the food trough for the pentagon hogs. Mission? Who needs a mission. We want a fast jet that can do that cobra thing the Russkies do.
Steve, who spent his career in the military-industrial complex and is tired of seeing the money heading down the drain on projects that were not adequately researched before the contracts were let. And if you think I'm wrong, just wait until we spend another 100 B on the JSF.
on June 24, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply
Much better and cheaper if the USA license build the Yak 141 and the drawing board Yak-143.
Already both vastly superior to the dreadful and woefully expensive Harrier.
Electronics and microwave technological advances are what make fighters superior.
Shove the latest technology radar in an old F-16 or even a Phantom- and still it would be an air superiority aircraft.
Ultra long wave radar technology can already detect "stealth" via air turbulence and radar absorbing composites are obsolete due to high-energy pulsed radar.
The B-2 Spirit was meant to be the last of the unjustifiably expensive Air Force wet dreams.
Time for accountability please and no Op-Ed/PR fake fairytale threats this time from the North JKorean-Iraqi-Chinese-Iranian bogeyman..