The DEW Line pal and frequent commenter Airpower stayed on-scene in Dubai long after many of his less-patient mates in the trade press flew off, regretfully including your blogger.
Lucky that Airpower stayed. He posted two comments on my blog last night that solves the mystery about what happened at the Ministry of Defense's surprise 3pm press conference yesterday, and also what happened during the F-22's first exercise encounter with the Typhoon and Rafale.
Get ready for disappointment. Airpower writes in:
But what about the appearance of six F-22s at Al Dhafra air base this week? A Royal Air Force spokesman told Craig Hoyle, Flight's defence editor, that Al Dhafra would host equal numbers F-22s, Typhoons, Rafales and jets from the UAE and Pakistan this week as part of the advanced tactical leadership course (the UAE's Red Flag or TLP).
Airpower also comments:
Lucky that Airpower stayed. He posted two comments on my blog last night that solves the mystery about what happened at the Ministry of Defense's surprise 3pm press conference yesterday, and also what happened during the F-22's first exercise encounter with the Typhoon and Rafale.
Get ready for disappointment. Airpower writes in:
Yes, there was a surprise alright - a nasty one for Aermacchi. The Thursday announcement was cancelled by the hosts with pretty much no notice, while several Aermacchi people were actually SITTING AND WAITING in the intended conference room. Whatever is going on with the jet trainer deal it is starting to look like bad news for somebody...Airpower refers above to the Alenia Aermacchi M346 Master, which the UAE Ministry of Defense selected last February as a jet trainer and light attack fighter. My colleague Siva Govindasamy, Flight's Singapore bureau chief, also attended the air show, and will publish a story next week in the magazine that adds a bit of context to this turn of events.
But what about the appearance of six F-22s at Al Dhafra air base this week? A Royal Air Force spokesman told Craig Hoyle, Flight's defence editor, that Al Dhafra would host equal numbers F-22s, Typhoons, Rafales and jets from the UAE and Pakistan this week as part of the advanced tactical leadership course (the UAE's Red Flag or TLP).
Airpower also comments:
The F-22s did not participate in ATLC. They were planned in as part of the exercise, then shortly beforehand they were withdrawn. Six jets were still deployed to Al Dhafra but they did not come out to play with the other boys and girls (OK, there were no girls). The USAF representatives at the show refused to acknowledge the aircrafts' presence or explain what they were doing in the UAE. If anyone can enlighten us...Yes, please, enlighten us. Anybody.
on November 20, 2009 6:04 PM | Reply
No surprise there, the US will not allow the F-22 to fight either the Rafale or Typhoon just in case the European fighters do well against it.
Imagine the publicity that would generate, if Rafale or Typhoon could do well against the F-22 what would that do to F-35 sales, a far less capable platform?
Other reasons might be to keep it's electronic capabilities secret, however this is not the first time this kind of thing has happened. Some time ago the US Navy refused to let it's F-18s dogfight Rafale, it was OK to carry out BVR training but not dogfighting. Read into that what you will.
on November 20, 2009 8:30 PM | Reply
Has there been any confirmation that the F-22s didn't in fact participate? With the Pakistanis, French, and Iranians around, I wouldn't be surprised... but do we know that Airpower's information is correct?
on November 20, 2009 11:07 PM | Reply
Dave,
The recent interest in an F-22 vs Eurofighter or Rafale engagement is amusing fanboy food, which you seem to be serving. This may come as a surprise to you but the F-22 has been shot down by F-16’s, F-15’s and even a F-18 SH (purported to be RF shot) all in simulated combat. Invariably, if/when the F-22 tangles with Typhoons or Rafales they will most likely suffer losses. I’d be surprised if they didn’t shoot any Raptors down. Who does “well” against their opponent will largely be dictated by flight parameters/restrictions, which always is the more telling story.
At the end of the day I think that more than being afraid of getting shot down by Eurocanards the USAF is not excited about demonstrating certain capabilities and tactics employed by the F-22, especially in this world of “anonymous” sources and the world wide web. I think the French did themselves a disservice with the shenanigans at Red Flag 08-4 and it wouldn’t surprise me if that was one of the reasons for pulling out of the Paris Air Show (a repeat 1991/F-117 debacle).
on November 21, 2009 10:04 AM | Reply
"Some time ago the US Navy refused to let it's F-18s dogfight Rafale, it was OK to carry out BVR training but not dogfighting. Read into that what you will."
Er, that was in 2001, and you have that backward (they allowed dogfighting but not BVR). Since then Rafales and Super Hornets have conducted DACT both in BVR and WVR, notably in 2005 involving USS Eisenhower and in 2008 when Rafales took part in JTFEX 08-4 (during which Rafales operated from USS Theodore Roosevelt).
Regarding the F-22 "pullout", I'm not convinced that the F-22s were really ever supposed to take part in ATLC. A USAF press release issued last Sunday stated,
"U.S. Air Force F-16s and F-22s have deployed to the United Arab Emirates, the service announced Sunday.
The F-16s will be supporting Exercise Iron Falcon until Dec. 10 at the United Arab Emirates Air Warfare Center. The exercise is designed to bring together Gulf Cooperation Council nations and other countries to strengthen military-to-military relationships, promote regional security, improve combined tactical air operations, and enhance interoperability of forces, equipment and procedures.
During the same period, F-22s will participate in bilateral training opportunities with coalition partners."
("Iron Falcon" is how the USAF refers to the ATLC exercises).
on November 21, 2009 4:35 PM | Reply
What would be gained by the F-22 flying against the Rafale and Typhoon? Nothing. If the F-22 won handily well, it's expected. If there were a few F-22 "kills" -no matter what the circumstances- those with agendas would distort it to their own purposes. Hell, look at the post above mine and the aircraft didn't even fly against each other. Certain "writers" have already made up F-22/Typhoon tales out of nothing, God knows what they'd come up with if there were a shred of actual evidence.
on November 21, 2009 6:45 PM | Reply
anyone think the f22s are there for an attack on iran. now that the f117 are gone, this is the only platform. seems odd 6 aircraft woud deploy for an airshow....
on November 23, 2009 4:29 AM | Reply
Since the story posted, the Iranians have announced a large war game exercise for the protection of their nuclear sights. I might not have been that far off. Seems the Iranians noticed the f22s
on November 23, 2009 9:35 AM | Reply
Forget about the F22, there must be a lot more interest about how the eurocanards did against each other. Even allowing for the limited information value of an exercise where the setting may well prejudge the outcome, there's national prides, really big deals, and even maybe technological insight involved in that one. The Raptor, by contrast, has been pretty much set apart since its inception by the no-export rule.
on November 23, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply
Ah well, Raptor turns chicken. Again.
Heard of the B-2, Clark? Not sure six F-22s could make much of a dent on anything in Iran!
on November 23, 2009 5:56 PM | Reply
Craig,
i was thinking more of shooting down cruise missles or ballistics in the straight of Hormuz.
The F22 would shine in that role....
2nd f22 with SDBs would create havoc on air defense sites surrounding their nuclear sites. Iranians couldnt see what hit them.
on November 24, 2009 4:16 PM | Reply
i was wondering about rafale v typhoon too. There seems to be an unchallenged assertion doing the rounds that they are essentially equal but that rafale has the slight edge through SPECTRA.
Not something i can see to be honest...