FARN10: Eurofighter boasts Typhoon reign over F-35


Eurofighter has launched a new campaign to assert the
supremacy of the Typhoon against the Lockheed Martin F-35 in air-to-air combat,
describing internal simulations giving the former an advantage over a
numerically superior F-35 attack force.

The campaign is aimed at challenging Lockheed’s claims that
the F-35 enjoys a 6:1 exchange ratio over modern fighters.

Eurofighter also hopes to dispel creeping global acceptance
of Lockeed’s description of the F-35 as a fifth generation fighter that is
implicitly superior to so-called fourth generation fighters, such as the
Typhoon.

The challenge appears as several countries face decisions over
buying both aircraft. On 20 July, Italy announced a decision to
cancel a planned Tranche 3B contract for 25 Typhoons.
In Eurofighter’s view, buying F-35s at the expense of fewer
Typhoons reduces the air force’s overall capability. Eurofighter respects the
F-35 as a world-class fighter for the air-to-ground mission, but not as a fighter
in the traditional role as an air-to-air machine, says Craig Penrice, a Typhoon
pilot and marketing adviser.

Lockheed and programme officials have claimed that the days
of traditional dogfighting are over. A promotional video released last year by
F-35 supplier Northrop Grumman claims, for example, that “manoeuvrability is
irrelevant” to a modern fighter. The video shows the F-35 can defeat opponents not
with dogfighting skill, but by firing missiles agile enough to turn 180º.
Eurofighter, however, claims the F-35 lacks all-aspect, very
low observable stealth, and is vulnerable to detection and defeat by
non-stealthy opponents.

In an internal simulation series, Eurofighter found that
four Typhoons supported by an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) defeated
85% of attacks by eight F-35s carrying an internal load of two joint direct
attack munitions (JDAMs) and two air-to-air missiles, Penrice says.
According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter’s head of future requirements capture, the F-35′s frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated
by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35′s most
likely approach path to a target.

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20 Responses to FARN10: Eurofighter boasts Typhoon reign over F-35

  1. Robert 22 July, 2010 at 2:52 pm #

    With only internal storage, F35 does not even carry enough A/A missile to claim LMT’s 6:1 exchange ratio; with external storage, F35′s comparatively lack of kinetics will most likely be its Achilles heel in WVR.

  2. Jetcal1 22 July, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    This is sort of like saying the F-18 can kill a A-7,

  3. sferrin 22 July, 2010 at 3:54 pm #

    Did Eurofighter happen to mention how the Eurofighter was suppose to beat a fighter it can’t track? I suspect that was in the “and here’s where the miracle happens” part of their presentation. ;-)

  4. Dave 22 July, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    Well they would say that wouldn’t they? Were Sweetman and Kopp their consultants for that project? It’s not like Eurofighter has an agenda or are above lying to sell their product. Perhaps everyone ought be buying Rafale since the French scored a 7:1 victory over the Typhoon allegedly. Didn’t they used to claim until a couple of years ago that the Typhoon is better than the Raptor? It’s all marketing BS.

  5. Jetcal1 22 July, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

    Gentlemen,
    Any aircraft with the right tactics and positioning can kill a superior aircraft. I would also expect any aircraft optimized for air to air combat to be able to kill an aircraft designed for air to ground.

  6. Charley 22 July, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

    Yea, I would agree that the F-35 is primarily a strike aircraft, and not an optimized air superiority fighter.

    Superior tactics by an inferior aircraft can defeat a superior aircraft using inferior tactics.

    The US would be using it’s F-22A to sanitize the battlespace, so I doubt that an EF would get anywhere close. Different for a non-us operator though.

    So is the F-35 an “all-aspect” stealth aircraft or not? Seems there is some debate.

    Rafales beat up on the EF’s? While I don’t doubt it, the French have been known to “bend” the rules of engagement when exercising with the USN….

  7. aeroxavier 22 July, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

    yeah , that’s right.
    when the typhoon train with the rafale he was largely inferior of it. one french pilot have say the rafale was “degraded” and he continue to beat the typhoon.
    And now the rafale was going to have new radar, spectra system, one possibility of new engine, new stealth stuff (paint…). He was multirole and can beat one plane who was made for air supremacy. he can use nuclear arms, bomb the ground and ships, can landing on one aircraft carrier. The typhoon can’t make that, he can’t be deployed in afghanistan, this is not one hazard if country who buy the EF2000 will buy one multirole jet like f-35.

    The typhoon was only compared in air supremacy against f-35, nothing more.
    Rafale largely superior of the typhoon was naturally largely superior to the f-35 and not just in air.

    the design don’t make the performance, when i see the f-22 i imagine one plane largely superior to other but no, that’s just US propaganda and imagination.I love russian plane but seriously they don’t was exceptional but the cold war nostalgy will prove others things.

    The rafale was for me the better plane today and he progress in upgrade. He make all (the f-22 make just air supremacy and will make protection for the f-35)
    Just see the US movement when the rafale was in one market.
    rafale have just one problem, he don’t was made by USA. france don’t buy 2000 plane like USA, the price of the rafale can’t be reduce if nobody buy it

  8. Jetcal1 22 July, 2010 at 6:13 pm #

    aeroxavier,
    Making an aircraft do many things is possible. Stressing the airframe so it carry heavy loads for many years at a few feet off the ground without structural failure is another. Structure my friend, stucture

  9. sferrin 22 July, 2010 at 6:36 pm #

    Jetcal1:

    The F-35 is no more “designed for air to ground” than the Typhoon is. They’re both multirole aircraft. Just because the F-35 is the superior air-to-ground aircraft doesn’t automatically dismiss it from air combat ability. It’s not as black and white as you (and others) would like it to be.

  10. Jetcal1 22 July, 2010 at 6:51 pm #

    sferrin,
    Maybe I’m wrong, but I believe the aircraft has been slanted towards the load factors that would normally be associated with those of a bomb truck. Given the F-18 center barrel and F-14 478 bulkhead issues, I personally don’t have problem with it. But, going up a light weight specialist dogfighter will probably put the F-35 at a disadvantage. Sort of a AD-1 versus a P-51 analogy.

  11. Alas 22 July, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    “Craig Penrice” – the same guy who fed JL aka Jackonicko on Keypub forums all the stories of the Rafale being inferior to the Typhoon at BVR, and the MMI being lousy, which promptly appeared in propoganda..oops articles..
    You can find Jackonicko at PercyPrune even slagging Flight for their good review of the Rafale and the TP rating its FCS as the best he ever flew.
    Craigs been silent after the 7:1 Rafale victory over TYphoons. I wouldnt touch any of these guys marketing BS without a ton of salt handy..

  12. Atomic Walrus 22 July, 2010 at 11:16 pm #

    The sad thing is that Eurofighter’s development delays actually make the JSF look good in comparison. The EAP flew in 1986, followed by the Typhoon prototype in 1994. The aircraft finally entered service in 2003, some 17 years after the experimental version took wing. In comparison, the X-35 flew in 2002, F-35 AF-1 flew at the end of 2006, and IOC is projected around 2014-2016. And it’s a stealth airframe with internal weapons carriage, more advanced sensor fusion, and developed in 3 variants. The Typhoon has advanced sensors, but aerodynamically it’s more like the old AFTI F-16.

  13. Nimrod 23 July, 2010 at 12:26 am #

    Oh what a load of BS in some of these comments, get a life.
    In any future conflict the F-35 will be going in with top cover, F-22s or Typhoons depending upon the country. it’s a strike fighter with ISR and good self defence capabilities.
    The comments on the detectability of the F-35 from angles of 25/30 degrees off the nose are correct, it is not invisible just LO.
    And remember we are all on the same side, France, USA and the UK so what is the point of getting wound up about marketing hype, LM have been pushing it out for years and they are number 1 at BS.

  14. Ex-Airman 23 July, 2010 at 6:02 pm #

    I don’t suppose the F-35 side of BAE passed any info to the EF side – firewalls exist for this sort of thing. So, fair guess their info on the F-35 is public-source, which implies the credibility of this simulation is suspect…

    “Eurofighter, however, claims the F-35 lacks all-aspect, very low observable stealth, and is vulnerable to detection and defeat by non-stealthy opponents.”
    Quite an ironic observation…

    “According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter’s head of future requirements capture, the F-35′s frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35′s most likely approach path to a target.”
    Uh oh, somebody better tell the RAF and AMI they bought the wrong jet?

    How about EF runs some simulations of an all-Typhoon force going up against S-300/400 SAM defended target sets and publicize the outcomes?

    It’s just as well air forces aren’t as blinkered as that.

  15. alloycowboy 23 July, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    That assumes you can detect the other fighter before it has already detected your aircraft and launched a missle at you. That is going to be pretty tough to pull off with all the F-35 sensors and data sharing. It’s no longer man against man or aircraft vs aircraft it’s one computer sensor network vs another computer senso network.

  16. bob 28 July, 2010 at 6:34 pm #

    This seems like a fun game so I made a simulation too. I parked 100 F-35s on a runway and a simulated biplane strafed them and destroyed all 100. Obviously, Europe needs biplanes as they have a 100:1 exchange ratio vs. the F-35.

  17. dude 29 July, 2010 at 2:36 am #

    It stands true for ANY jet or equipment caught in the open.

    Hence, the need for air superiority. Try to establish that with F-35.

  18. Sclytrack 1 December, 2010 at 4:02 pm #

    The Typhoon needs an omnidirectional missile shield.

    a) anti-missile missiles.
    b) guided bullets.

    Also we need a smaller army (more reserve troops). I’d say cut the active troop number by 60%. Cold war is over.

  19. asdf 1 December, 2010 at 10:38 pm #

    The US would be using it’s F-22A to sanitize the battlespace, so I doubt that an EF would get anywhere close.

    the jsf is an international fighter, don’t forget that. denmark, australia, etc. don’t have f22, so the simulation is completely valid (assuming that those two ac would actually face each other in the air), as long as the 35 wasn’t kept “conservatively low” and ef “conservatively high”

  20. asdf 1 December, 2010 at 10:40 pm #

    and the typhoon can track the 35 via awacs and it’s datalink, if not possible otherwise. and when it’s near enough, then it can get a missile solution or close in from the flank

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