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Aviation History
1917
1917 - 0424.PDF
1/OGBT] wc here can interfere with the use made of the machines we send out is really3 aft MAY 3, 1917. Major Baird : The Committee is to consider the civil side of aviation.Mr. Joynson-Hicks : Still, I am very glad that a Committee is to be formed to consider the civil side of aviation. There is quite enough work in connectionwith that to provide the Committee with plenty to do for a good many months. At the same time, I hope the enormous advance which is bound to take placeh t f years in naval and military aviation will not be overlooked, itd Majtoo gla never used. I must ask you Mr Maclean, for an °?P°d£ so when the the case as it was put yesterday or for an °PP^inity "^°'P| me an early hon. and gallant gentleman sits down. I trust you, sir, win give m opportunity of replying to that point. mfmber I shall be only 'Major Baird: If I have "««repre«nted the hon^mcmber 1 M. ^ oo glad to have it pointed out. As a general•™£™£ao$>\£ non. member sS v»S^sweha^ at *e front? To^mou^for^ tution for the machines we have does not help. * oDoay ^? « ^, t0 a ^^^ when know ^^^pSn^n^rS SEg ^and months ahead. It is not in the mterests of tbf™£l machines as being unsuitable for the work which ,hey areyou know that these machines cannot be rf"^ "'^ ht th his are being replaced as ra an someone will appwhose duty it will be to look after that, and not leave us in the parlous p in which we were when the war began. In regard to the licences for the manu-facture of experimental aeroplanes, I hope and trust those licences will be freely granted. I know that in time of war one cannot press too strongly theright of the individual inventor, and 1 hope these licences will be freely granted, and that no inventor will be crabbed, however absurd his ideas may be to theminds of those in the Air Service, because it is out of absurd ideas that very often brilliant inventions result. The utmost facilities should be given to thosewho desire to manufacture new inventions in the shape of aeroplanes. I do not intend to indulge in any random criticism, nor do I want to indulgein hostile criticism. My hon. and gallant friend has put us in a difficulty in regard to objections and criticism. At the same time, the ParliamentaryAir Committee and we cannot be unmindful of the grave anxiety that there is at the present time in regard to certain machines at the Front. I will callthem A and B. I do not want to mention them particularly, but there is anxiety with regard to the casualties from time to time. Numbers have beenkept from us by the Under-Secretary of State for War, but I venture to suggest that secrecy in the House of Commons means publicity outside. Through thePress, through correspondence, through wounded men coming back, the facts filter through, and the country gradually begins to realise what machines aregood and what are bad, and what the state of affairs at the Front is. When d itd there was a strong consensus of opinion that must not think that they are the peopl? who have a muuvr».j --. article. We have it supplied also from the front. Hon, members must not imagine that we do not hear of requirements and suggestions from the front as well as from this House. Hon, members may be quite certain that long before they raise points here with regard to machines, those points have been raised, probably weeks and months before, by competent officers who have visited the front. The only other question with which I have to deal is that of the mastery of the air. I do not know who invented the expression, but it has absolutely very little meaning. Mr. Joynson-Hicks : I think I did. I have tried to get it for years. Major Baird : Perhaps the hon. member will tell us what he means by it. I can tell him that there is no such thing as mastery of the air, for the reason that the air is not only a very big place, but that it is getting bigger every day. That is explained when you realise that if from being able to get up to io,oco feet you are able to get up to 20,000 feet you have extended the air by io,oco feet. In that sense it is true to say that the air is getting bigger every day. However numerous your machines or your patrols, nobody can pretend that you can patrol a strip of air 100 miles long and five miles deep in such a way as to make it impossible for the enemy to get through your patrol. It is not wise to endeavour to impress upon people the idea that aerial mastery is going infallibly to prevent any enemy aircraft getting through. The thing is impossible. Therefore, if we should receive visits from the Germans from time to time, we. have got to put up with them to a certain extent. It is not fair to lead people to believe that you can give them that protection which they cannot be giv.en. It would be very unwise to withdraw from useful and effective work a number of machines merely in order to do the work of reassuring people at home. You might have a large number of machines waiting here on patrol duty to meet possible and hypothetical raids, when you know that it would provide inadequate protection and that those machines might be better employed elsewhere. I think it is wise to say a word or two of warning on that matter. What you can do in the air, and what is being done in the air, is to ensure that our men shall enjoy a degree of predominance sufficient to enable them to carry out their duties and to prevent the Germans from carrying out their duties. That has happened and is happening. So long as that state of affairs exists, I am bound to say it is as much as we can expect. The men are carrying out their functions. They are not satisfied, and we are not satisfied, with the machines we have got. We never have been satisfied, and I do not suppose we ever shall be, for the reason that you can either have a service with the very best machines, in which case you will have very few of them, or you may have a service comprising second-rate machines, in which case you can have a great many of them, or you can have a service combining both, in which case you will have the advantage of both. That is exactly what we have. To have. nothing but first-rate machines, which implies their immediate substitution for the machines which are in use, is not really a practical proposition. It does not lead to any useful result and is likely to produce among the pilots a degree of discontent and a degree of lack of confidence in their machines which is not wise. Let hon. members remember that, although very good machines may be produced, you will always have to continue to produce large numbers of slow, obsolete machines in order to enable the pilots to be trained. You must bring up your pilots step by step. It is necessary to do what is accepted and well-known by competent judges in this matter, namely, produce slow and obsolete machines in order to train your pilots efficiently up to the highest point. Mr. Montagu : My sole object in rising is to say something on only one part of the subject—-because I know nothing about the air—the part of the subject which deals with the supply of machines. My hon. and gallant friend will admit that all through the earlier stages of the history of this matter the Ministry of Munitions gave all possible assistance in its power to the needs of the air services, conflicting though they often did with the needs of other supplies. Of course, it was recognised that the needs of the air services must come first, and that every effort must be made to meet their demands. The old system of things was very inefficient and wasteful, and led to the greatest possbible delays in the equipment of the air services. It was for that reason that, during the time I was at the Ministry of Munitions, the whole of those interested in the matter united in their demand that the Navy should not build aeroplanes for itself and the Army for itself, but that we, who had to deal with petrol engines^ motor lorries and with the same firms that were making aeroplanes, should be entrusted with the responsible task for which we thought our organisation fitted us : of supplying everything for everybody. During war-time, at any rate, there is no time for writing letters and red-tape. Let us never face a war again —if there be another war—let us never face peace again, with the departmental spirit in the Navy and the Army competing against one another. The Ministry of Munitions began with small things, and, growing from day to day, 1 is beginning to be a Ministry of Supply. I hope such a Ministry of Supply has come to exist as a permanent part of our organisation. Mr. Joynson Hicks : I should like also to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary especially, and the Air Board also, upon the suggestion he has outlined of the new Committee under the aegis of Lord Northcline-—than whom I do not think one could have a better man, for he has been so keenly interested in flying for so many years—to consider the naval and military and commercial side of flying so soon as the war is over. I am only too glad to think that a Committee is to be formed, for there is need for a large amount of work to be done. r the re pcandour in making the remarks he did in regard to the powers of the p Air Board. Now at last we have in Lord Cowdray an Air Minister in whom areconcentrated all the civilian powers which have been previously exrrcistd in regard not only to manufacture, but in regard to the civilian control of both the Air Services.General Henderson stated last week at Birmingham that neither ccrcmand -nor astery of the air had any existence. On the other hand, I think I am right' ' " ' =—•"•= o» FHinhureh stated we have got mastery of the Air ocivn.c tzi that we should get .I mean by command of the air is this : exactly what the Royal Navy has inmoment the question of submarines, Sryears^e-n-inte^din mastery or command of toe air. ^v Sato" thTsea. ^eave -t «-»- ,™ f—IThive' which is quite a distmetjoint. tmnK^ y^ x ^^ tQ be ^ in the same way andn *e samesense comm aerodromes. I want to be to block enemy £^s^t^foCrTtXy I want to be able to prevent themable to prevent them spotting I° d a^1 "=J out raids On innocent people. Isending over airships here £ °™« ^"^ Lroplanes here to drop, net very want to prevent them sending over "£ir v j think ^ ls harmful but .™P™a' ^minance m numbers as will ensure it. We havepossible if we have sucha^preaomina Uon about that among any ofthe predominance >n men. There is no q ^^ ^ ^ subject> andus. I have never said in 1W Wcn^ ^ ^^ ^ ^ me o(jtI am not going to saythis a«ernoon * « and devotion of our airmen,—one word in criticism^of tne ™°™*' J super-heroes of the war, That is absolutely beyond £^JSTi h^mt and so determined it is for usand, inasmuch as »f™~™ b^st machiDes that they can possibly haveto see that we give them the very^ tma^ supremacy of the air at the What is the P^^'^Xunder-Secretary of State for W;ar was askedpresenttime? On March 7th tne Kirkcaldv (Sir H. Dalziel), " Can he by my right hon. fnen. * ..^ery^the^on the Western ^ront ^ ^1 There has not at any time on any side of thewhich can properly be described as the e said. I am rather inclined to doubt that.bad the supremacy in the air. If you read the Commander-in-Chief in the spring otthe commencement of the Somme offensive undoubtedly had a distinct and total'" had all last summer a distinct think I can make thai• ^ rather modified that stateIn^n^ Western theatre been ;^ ^ mastery or suprmacy m th I think there was a tl™eJ the despatches immJ^ I9i6 to the summer ofin July, ^ yon S&^^M^T^eS^ ^tSinfpairmen care nothl.ngJ,or fr^m a recent report, brought back in one day 1,700Our men, as we learn from accent rep ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 6. photographs, but I ^ a*"ld * acv on theT Western Front that we had during l ^^%6r ^eyre°ason is this. My hon. friend went on to hon tellI mean the ones that the hon geni e c he or the Air B as being superior to any hmg of the^ rma but5o percent roe that there »»^^Kg re™ laced by th bt tpe of machines sucof our machines at the tntDemgF , as he and I have "»J" am afraid not confusion andS ^ but5o perce K lace the bes typ machines, suchtDemgF ^ com sufflmer? I ^ Thave been done if it had not been for thein the last two Air Boards or Air Com- Cowdray the power that he Lord Curzon and L^dTMonrto«UrpWnot verv muor Committee, which I fear were not %erjr m year? The-pubUc believes in Lord Cowdray,because he has great powers, great ^h^ powers, but also because they belleve^ ^sbelieve he is really jn control. Letme^a sk control with regard to the Air Se™ces atBoard have no.power ^J^^l belongs to the R.I' .C. good, in the autumn of lastIt, ' because of what he is M od, i the autumn f lst is,t^ dri e *°wery'to do things. TheyP he reaU has ffly effectiveCowdray and the Air ^ aeroplane which ^ase with regard to the R.N.A.S.-than-airship side has never come They hje nothing to do wit* 424
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