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Aviation History
1917
1917 - 1232.PDF
NOVEMBER 22, 1917. THE AIR FORCE BILL IN PARLIAMENT. IN the House of Commons on November 14th the Chancellor of the Ex-chequer (Mr. Bonar Law) moved " That the Resolution relative to Air Force [Salaries and Remuneration] may be considered this day as soon as it is reportedfrom the Committee, notwithstanding the practice of the House relating to the interval between the Report and Consideration of such a Resolution."Question put, and agreed to. The House then went into Committee on the Financial Resolution.Motion made, and Question proposed, " That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by Parliament of Salaries and Remunera-tion payable under any Act of the present Session to make provision for the establishment, administration, and discipline of an Air Force, the establishmentof an Air Council, and for purposes connected therewith."—[Lord Edmund Tatoot.] Mr. Pringle raised the question of the amount to be paid to the Air Minister,and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Air Board (Major Baird) said the whole question is one of status. For the reason which I gave during the Second Read-ing Debate, it appears desirable to raise the political head of the new Air Board to the status of the political head of the Army and the political head of theNavy. It is for that reason, and for that reason only, that it has been decided to suggest to the House that the new political head of the Air Board should bea Secretary of State, and his pay that of a Secretary of State. Lord H. Cecil: There will be a Vote in Supply. Mr. Sherwell: The Air Minister, under the terms of the Bill associated with thisResolution, is not to have the sole responsibility and the undivided control of the Secretaries of State of which we have experience. He is to have limitedcontrol compared with the autonomous control of the two other important Departments of State mentioned. Therefore, he has not the duties and re-sponsibilities of a Secretary of State to carry the ordinary emoluments of a Secretary of State. I have a very disquieting feeling as to the continued evi-dence on the part of the Government that questions of status and questions of emolument should count for so much in this period of War. Mr. Pringle : Clause 8 of this Bill provides for the establishment of the AirCouncil, and Clause 9, Sub-section (2), the portion for which this Resolution is necessary, provides for the payment to members of the Council and secretaries,officers, and servants, of such salaries as the Treasury may determine. What salaries are to be paid to members of the Air Council ? Is the Government goingto limit the number of members of the Air Council ? Are there to be any men with trade interests on that Council ? We sometimes have on these Councilsmen who take no salaries, and I give all credit to them for that, but sometimes they are connected with companies which are working for the GovernmentDepartment of which they are members. Their refusal of remuneration is patriotic from a superficial point of view, but when we come to subsequent trans-actions the matter bears a somewhat different aspect. Mr. Outhwaite : My hon. Friend has referred to the remuneration of membersof the Air Council, and I would point out the necessity of getting men of pro- fessional capacity who are outside the contracting interests. I have raised thequestion in the House before, by question, as to the presence on the Air Board of members of firms which are contracting for aeroplane supplies. We mustget away from such a system as that. I would be very^orry to see it perpetuated in connection with this new Air Service. I would call it a scandal that thereshould be men in any way connected with the supply of aeroplanes or anything connected with the Air Service who are themselves connected with firms con-tracting for supplies at present, and are thus virtually connected with the ' granting of contrac'tsto theirown firms. Question put, and agreed to. Resolution reported. Mr. Pringle, Mr. Billing and Mr. Sherwell asked for information as to thenumber of members of the Air Council to which Major Baird replied : There is no intention on the part of the Government to conceal from hon. Membersany information that they may desire to have. That, indeed, would be a very bad way of requiting the House for their indulgence in giving the Committeethe two stages to-day, in order that we may get on with the Bill. The whole question turns upon what my right hon. and learned friend said as to what isthe proper moment to give this information, and he said that the proper moment was not this one, but on Clause 9 of the Bill. However, I will give such infor-mation as in the circumstances is possible. As regards Under-Secretaries, power is taken in this Bill to create a Parliamentary Under-Secretary and aParliamentary Financial Secretary, but there is no intention at present to appoint the latter, though it may become necessary. Nobody can tell how,eventually, the work of the Air Ministry will develop. At the present moment the work which would normally fall to the Parliamentary Financial Secretaryfalls within the province of the' Ministry of Munitions, the War Office, or the Admiralty, and for that reason there is no intention at present to appoint aParliamentary Financial Secretary. As to the scale of pay of the Under- secretaries, we propose to pay them on the same scale as in all other offices ;but it is the Treasury that must determine what the pay is to be. We have been working at a scheme of organisation, and we have made proposals with regardto what we consider adequate, based on the scale of the War Office and the Army Council. Roughly, what we propose, therefore, in regard to the Council,is that it shall consist of the Secretary of State, the Chief of Staff, and probably a sub-Chief, who will act in the absence of the Chief, and vice versa. Then wepropose that there shall be an officer who shall have the control of the depart- ment of personnel, and also an officer to control material, is so far as that is notfurnished by the Ministry of Munitions. This officer will take over part of the functions of the General-Director of Ordnance at the War Office. In regardto the Council, I would point out that it would be unwise to lay down a fixed principle in regard to that body, because, for the efficiency of the Service, itmight easily be that it would be necessary to increase its number. Then there would be also a Secretary of the Board. Again, land is a question which playsso large a part in the organisation of the Flying Service in regard to aerodromes, and so forth, that it is desirable that these matters should be dealt with asrapidly and as efficiently as possible ; and we find it desirable, therefore, to have as member of the Air Council one who will be able to deal with the subjectof land. As regards the Ministry of Munitions, I can quite understand the reference that has been made to members of the Air Board who are connectedwith commercial undertakings, but I wish hon. members would be quite frank in saying what they mean. Do they mean that, when we are asked to dealwith a highly technical matter of this kind, on which depend not only the effi- ciency of this arm of the services but the lives of our airmen, we ought not to bedebarred or limited in any direction as regards the selection of men for the work ? Nobody would think we were doing right if we did not avail ourselves of theservices of those men who are best qualified, whatever their position in life may be, to take charge of this work. Obviously nobody knows better the difficultiesand the complications of the aircraft industry than those who are familiar with it. I quite agree that in theory and in principle it may be wise to confine theseappointments in time of peace to politicians and people of that kind, but it would be a very great misfortune if we carried that practice into war time. Mr. Deuman : I do not see anything whatever in regard to the payment forland and building and materiel. Am I to underst&d that the Air Ministry will spend nothing whatever, and that the Ministry of Munitions will supply allmateriel needed ? Who will be responsible for the expenditure on land and buildings ? Major Baird: I think my hon. friend will find that provided for in Sub-section 4 of Clause 8, which says : " His Majesty may by Order in Council transfer from the Admiralty or fromthe Army Council or the Secretary of State for the War Department, to the Air Council or the President of the Air Council, such property, rights, andliabilities of the Admiralty or Army Council or Secretary of State, as may be agreed fietween the Air Council and the Admiralty, or the Army Council, as thecase may be." That refers to aerodromes and the establishments, vi'e'io-.vhnvj. The AirMinistry will take them over, but, like everything else, it will be done gradually. With regard to the other point, money will of course be required directly the AirCouncil is formed, for the purpose of starting it. All that this Resolution seeks to do is to enable the Ministry to be formed, and, when formed, it will come to theHouse for a Vote. Mr. Lynch : The words " Air Ministry" are used. Have they any relationto the Air Council ? . Major Baird : It is the same thing. * - ~ ' . -Question put, and agreed to. The House then went into Committee on the Bill.[Reference to the actual wording of the various clauses should be made to the Bill as printed on p. 1197 in our last issue.—Ed.] Clause 1 (Raising and Number of Air Force) added to the BilkClause 2 (Government, Discipline, and Pay of Air Force). Mr. Billing : I beg to move a manuscript Amendment, the object of whichis to add a new Clause after Clause 1. The Chairman : We have not got to the new Clauses yet. I will ask the hon.member to move his first Amendment to Clause 2. Mr. Billing : I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word " dis-cipline." • My object is to secure that the disciplinary measures embodied in this Actshould be the same as those which obtain in the Army and the Navy. I fail to see why this power should be given to the Secretary.of State, or why the dis-cipline of this force should be dealt with by this Act of Parliament. I would suggest that always in this Bill there is a tendency to vest in the Secretary ofState powers which are not usually possessed by Secretaries of State, and to remove wherever possible the control of the House of Commons. I thereforewant this word " discipline " struck out. Major Baird : I think it is essential to keep the word in. The hoirTgentlemanis in error in thinking that this bill confers greater powers on the Secretary of State than are possessed by other Secretaries of State. The question of dis-cipline in the Air Force has to be provided for in the same way as the King's Regulations provided for it in the Army, and the Regulation will have to bemade subject to the provisions of this Act. I think the hon. member will find it absolutely necessary to keep the word in. Mr. Billing : Am I in error in suggesting to the hon. and gallant gentlemanthat it would be possible under this Act to alter the discipline of the force with- out coming to the House of Commons to alter the Aft ? Major Baird: The discipline will be subject to th% King's Regulations, andany alteration must be reported to this House. Mr. Billing : Would it be impossible to alter the discipline of this Forcewithout altering either this Act or the Army Act ? Would it be necessary to come to tnis House to do that ?Major Baird : I really think the hon. gentleman is labouring under a mis- apprehension. The Army Act is to be adapted to this Bill when it becomes anAct, and nothing can be'done contrary to this Bill. If the Air Force Bill is passed it cannot be altered without the consent of Parliament; therefore, Ithink the hon. member's point is met entirely. Amendment negatived.Colonel Gretton : I beg to move, in the same Sub-section, to leave out the words, " including any matter."I want to make it quite clear that the Secretary of State shall not make orders which are not authorised by this Bill. Clearly it would not be wise, nor could itbe intended by the tramers of this Bill, unless they are trying to deceive the House, that the Secretary of State, by the formality of an Order in Council,shall make orders on any matter at his own sweet will. Is it not clear there is here an extension of powers, which was not contemplated ?Major Baird : My reply to this Amendment is similar to that which I gave to the last. Everything has to be provided for in both directions. It is necessaryto be quite certain that Regulations shall not be made that do not fall within the four corners of the Air Force Act, and at the same time the Secretary of Stateought not to be hampered with regard to the regulations he may make under the Act. I am afraid the result of the omission of these words would hamperhim in this direction. It is absolutely necessary' he should have a free hand, but Parliament will still retain complete control by being called upon to sanc-tion the Air Force Act every year. Colonel Gretton : This is news indeed. The hon. and gallant gentlemanhas just told us that the Bill is to come up annually for renewal. Does he really mean that ? It is an entirely new doctrine that a Secretary of Stateshould be set up to do whatever he pleases without limitation, while he is to be allowed most graciously to do those things which the Act prescribes. Major Baird : I do not think my hon. and galiant friend can have noticedSub-section (2) of Clause 12, which provides that the Air Force Act shall continue in force only as long as the Army Act continues in force. Provision is made foramending the Air Force Act automatically with the Army Act, so that there is no question about the Secretary of State having a roving commission. Heis confined by the very terms of the Clause under discussion to action by this Act authorised. I think that is quite clear. Sir I. Phillips : I think the hon. gentleman in charge of the Bill is ratherconfusing us with his Air Force Act and the Air Force Constitution Bill. When we are faced with two Bills like these and call one an Act and the other a Bill,it is liable to lead to confusion. I think the hon. gentleman might consider whether he cannot invent different names for the two articles which he is pre-senting to the country. Mr. Billing : Perhaps the Attorney-General will tell us whether the Bill givesthe Secretary of State any powers which Liother Secretaries of State do notpossess ? Sir F. E. Smith : I do not think it gives any powers which other Secretariesof State do not possess, and consequently in my opinion the fear expressed by my hon. and- gallant friend is quite upfounded.- It is obvious that any Bill ofthis kind, by reason of its very nature, has to make provision that certain matters shall be dealt with by orders or by Regulations, and this Bill simply contains pro-visions to that effect. There is nothing unusual in giving these powers to the Secretary of State. Amendment negatived.Mr. Billing : I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), after the word " Parliament " [" laid before Parliament "], to insert the words " for confirmation."I do this because I think hon. members will agree that if this is to be brought before Parliament it should be brought before Parliament for confirmation, asdistinct irom what has been the custom in many recent acts of the Government, namely, to perform the act, and then to come and say they have done it, insteadof first coming to the House and asking permission to do it. Major Baird : If this Amendment were accepted, the effect would be to makeit necessary to pass an Act of Parliament whenever alterations were made in the King's Regulations. Amendment negatived.Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill. •- ;"~' 1232
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