FlightGlobal.com
Home
Premium
Archive
Video
Images
Forum
Atlas
Blogs
Jobs
Shop
RSS
Email Newsletters
You are in:
Home
Aviation History
1917
1917 - 1236.PDF
NOVEMBER 22, 1917. were contracting with their Department. We all know the stringency of theRules which relate to Members of Parliament having contracts with His Majesty's Government. During the course of the present War, however, the stringencyof these rules has to some extent been relaxed. It has been felt that the nature of the national emergency is such that a rule of this house which is absolutelysound in ordinary times shovld not be rigidly adhered to. We know that in connection with the Munitions Department there have been men employed inofficial positions who have been interested in undertakings which were con- tracting with them. 1 do not allege that as a result of these arrangements anyabuses have arisen. At the same time, the existence of these air arrangements has in some cases given ground for suspicion. There is another point of the very greatest importance to the Air Service.That Service, as we all know, is one which is specially in an experimental stage. We are all desirous of seeing improvements made in the machines at the serviceof our flying men. We desire, in view of their safety, and for the offensive qualities of the machine, that they should have machines of a higher fightingquality than those to which they are likely to be opposed. If, however, you have on your Air Council men who are financially interested in the production ofexisting machines, and to whom the scrapping of the existing type and the substitution of the new type would mean a very considerable loss, there is alwaysthe risk, under these circumstances, that the new machine, however admirable and useful it may be, or likely to turn out, however simple its construction, maynot have a fair chance when it comes to be tested for the purpose of decision. These are dangers against which we should take every measure to guard. Major Baird : The Amendment on the Paper appears reasonable, and ongeneral grounds it would be difficult to withstand it. I would like to point out quite frankly that if this Amendment is accepted two gentlemen who had ren-dered greater service to the Air Service than any other two individuals alive would not be qualified to sit on the future Air Council. If it were only in orderto be able to avail ourselves of the services of these two gentlemen, I should certainly think it worth while to resist this Amendment. With all that thehon. member says about having people sitting in judgment upon their own designs I quite agree, but this only shows a lack of knowledge of the systemunder which the designs are selected. The Air Board has in its employment a designs, or technical, department, and they act on its advice. The hon.member never insinuated that it would be done deliberately—he admitted it would only be done unconsciously—-but even if it were possible for a memberof the Board who happened to be interested to some extent in the manufacture of aircraft to find himself biassed in favour of his own manufacture as againstthat of some other man, he would be only one on the Board. Obviously, the last thing that any man would do would be to bring forward something in whichhe was personally interested. The danger would rather be that he would hesitate to bring forward some invention in which his firm was directly interested. Mr. Billing : It is not what he bripgs forward ; it is what he turns down.Major Baird : It is precisely the same thing. Mr. Billing : No ; it is exactly the opposite.Major Baird : A thing cannot be turned down until it has been brought forward. If it is brought forward, it is either accepted or turned down. Theimportant thing is that it should be brought forward, and that the Board should have at their disposal, and should thoroughly study, the inventions and ideasof the whole country. The danger which the hon. member fears does not exist and it would be extreme folly to deliberately deprive ourselves of the servicesof two men who, I repeat, have rendered greater service to aviation than any other men in the country. Let it be remembered that with the spread ofaviation and the manufacture of aircraft it is extremely difficult to find_any. big engineer pert of whose works are not engaged in the manufacture of some partoi an aeroplane. That is precisely the case of the firm which the hon. member has in mind. A certain part of the works in which two members of the AirBoard are interested are devoted to the manufacture of aircraft and air ranges. It is not the whole na^' * ''_;:r \ jsinesa, buv to-day so widespread is the manu-fac.U'r^ o» aircraft that if we accept this Amendment we exclude ourselves from Cka employment of almost any big engineer. We cannot afford to do that. Mi. Pxingle : He could easily part with his shares and put them in War Loan.Major Baird : Surely it is not reasonable to expect a man to cut himself entirely adrift from his own business ? Mr. Pringle : Lord Rhondda gave up his directorships.Major Baird: That may be, but I do say that you cannot call upon a man when taking on a Government job—the Government may be short-lived—toentirely cut himself adrift for that period from his own business. Mr. Hogge : He has got to do it now.Major Baird : Yes, in times of peaue. Mr. Pringle : Lord Rhondda has done it.Major Baird : That may be, but it is an understood thing that a man does not abandon his interest, although he does abandon actual participation, in whatis known as his private business. Major Baird : I do not think it is necessary to pursue this subject further.You run no danger with the type of man you are going to employ or the kind of man who would be asked to sit on the Council, and it would certainly be takingan altogether disproportionate view of the needs of the situation and the best means of meeting them if we were to exclude ourselves from the right of invitingthe services of anybody in a position to render services to the country. Sir I. Pbilipps ; Here we have a member of the Government telling us thatthe people employed by the Air Council, the greatest Service that we have got, are to be those who have private interests in other matters. It is absolutelyunheard of. It has been unheard of in the Admiralty and in the Army, and I believe the result of the introduction into His Majesty's Forces of such a principlewould be quite impossible. Mr. Billing : May I ask the hon. and gallant gentleman whether he is going tocarry this matter further, as he has so far committed the Government ? Are we to understand that a man with shares can occupy a position on the Counciland that a man on the Council without shares can buy them ? You cannot say that one man on the Council shall be a holder of shares and that anotherman on the Council shall not. To carry the thing furtl er, there is nothing to prevent the officers appointed to the Council taking large interests in aeronauticalfirms. Mr. Harcourt: I really must join other bon. members in what I think is avital question in protesting against the obiter dictum which fell from the Treasury Bench that no man,-j^hether he be an officer or a civilian, can be supposed,even in time of war, to understand a subject unless he is financially interested. That is one of the most extraordinary statements to which I have ever listenedin the House of Commons. Mr. Pringle: When the Air Board was set up I do not believe a single Member ofthe House imagined for a moment that men who were directly interested in fac- tories producing aeroplanes were going to be made members of that Board.It is true that after the Bill was passed two gentlemen were appointed members of the Board who were so interested. They are men of great distinction inthat particular line of business. The situation is altogether objectionable from the point of view of the standards hitherto prevailing. Major Baird: It is quite obvious, after the strong views that have been ex-pressed.in regard to this Amendment, that it is impossible to dispose of it by a simple negative on the part of the Government. Nothing has surprised me morethan to find that I was apparently enunciating a new principle in the statement which has evoked so much discussion. It is not a hew principle, because inanswer to a question at least six months ago I gave definitely the information that two members of the Air Board were connected with the trade. Of course,i n time of peace, that would be impossible, and I agree that in time of war, on general grounds, it would be far better perhaps if we had not to do it. In viewof the very strong feelings expressed in all directions in the Committee, I should be glad if the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle) would allow me to bring this matter upagain on the Report stage. Obviously, in view of the action of the Committee, I want to guard myself against the accusation of having announced a new prin-ciple. I repeated precisely what I stated six months ago, and everyone accepted it. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.Sir F. Banbury : My hon. and gallant friend earlier in the afternoon said that he would make a statement either on the Financial Resolution or on Clause 8as to the salaries to be paid to members of the Air Council and the numbers of that Council. That has not been done, and as this is the opportunity for himto do it, I would ask him if he would make that statement. Major Baird : It may not be a solution of the case, but I promise that thewhole matter shall be fully gone into with a view to satisfying the House on the Report stage. I did this afternoon on the Report stage of the Financial Resolu-tion give such information as I had with regard to the proposed composition of the Air Council. Sir F. Banbury: What about salaries ?Major Baird: It is proposed that the salaries of the President of the Air Council, who will be a Secretary of State, and of the Undersecretary, shallbe the same as the salaries of Secretaries of State and Under-Secretaries. Sir F. Banbury : There will be other members. ^ Major Baird: The salaries of the members of the Ajr Council as a wholewill be fixed by the Treasury. Our suggestion is to submit to the Treasury proposals for a scale of salaries in accordance with the rank of the officer occupyingthe position on the same basis as the salaries paid to the Army Council. The Treasury has not approved that proposal because it has not yet been submitted,but obviously this and a great many other points have been worked upon, and that is one of the proposals which we intend to make. Clause 9.—(Staff, Remuneration and Expenses.)Mr. Billing : I beg to move, in Sub-section (z), to leave out the word " Treas- ury "and to insert instead thereof the word " Parliament." This is another case in which 1 think Parliament should have something tosay in reference to the salaries paid. I understood that we were going to have an opportunity of having something to say in reference to the other salaries,but it appears that that is not going to be the case. Under this Bill the Govern- ment are reserving the right to appoint as many officers as they like and, throughthe Treasury, to award any salaries which they think fit, and this House is to have no control. I propose this Amendment so as to give Parliament theopportunity of determining the salaries which these officials shall be paid, because there are so many of them. Major Baird : I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment. The Clauseis drawn according to constitutional practice, leaving these matters to be de- termined by the Treasury. This does not affect the control of Parliament, withwhich rests the voting of the money required to pay the salaries. Unless the money is voted, the salaries cannot be paid. It is always open to the hon.gentleman, when the vote comes up, to ask what salaries are being paid. It is customary for the Treasury to suggest the payments, and it is possible forParliament to reduce them. I do not think that the hon. gentleman need be afraid of losing control. Mr. Billing : Do I understand that when the Vote comes up it will be possibleto have officers removed ^ Is it not the general principle to reduce the salary of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which is 1000 a year, by £5, or somethinglike that ? Lord H. Cecil: The Amendment, in it«. present form means that you wouldhave to have an Act of Parliament for every official, cohering all the officials you appoint. You would have to have the 3 all set out in a Schedule of another Actof Parliament. Mr. Billing : If this Amendment were carried, and it was necessary to obtainParliamentary sanction, the Government would have to answer to Parliament for his actual appointment. All I am trying to do is to endeavour in some wayto arrest the wholesale creation of officials who are quite unnecessary. Amendment negatived.Mr. Billing : I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word " Parliament " [" provided by Parliament "], to insert the words " to the President of the AirCouncil an annual salary of £5,000." The reason I move the Amendment is that the Government has practicallyassured us that the salaries are to be on the same scale as in other Departments, and I do not see why these words should not be inserted in the Bill. Perhapsthe hon. gentleman who is piloting this measure, or one of his friends on the Front Bench, will say whether he has any objection to accepting this Amend-ment as it stands. Major Baird : I have already stated to the House that it is the intentionthat the salary will be the same as to other Secretaries of State. But it may be- that the scale of their salaries may vary, and it is only right that the salary inthis instance should also vary. I do not think the Amendment is desirable. Mr. Billing: A Secretary of State's salary is identical with that of the FirstLord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for War, and, if they are the same, they should remain so. All I am anxious to do is to be assured that thesalary of the Secretary of State for the Air Service shall never be less than that of other right hon. gentlemen. Major Baird : I will state for the third or fourth time that the scale of salaries .to be paid will be the same as is paid to other Secretaries of State. Amendment negatived.Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 10.—(Style, Seal, and, Proceedings of Air Council) ordered to standpart of the Bill. Clause 11.—(Provisions as to Sitting in Parliament.)Sir F. Banbury : I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2). Ninety members of the Government, I think, is almost enough, but by thisBill we are now going to add three ; but that does not make it 93, because, as I understand, the President of the Air Board, or whatever his title may be, willbecome, or somebody else in his place will become, President of the Air Council, I am not quite sure ; but if h« should go to some other and more exalted position,the number would still remain at 90. If my Amendment is carried, it would add nothing to the number of 90, and even that number is unnecessary. Myhon. and gallant friend informed us that it was proposed to appoint a Financial Secretary, though not at once. If that be so, I think he can give no valid reasonfor refusing my Amendment. Major Baird I gladly acknowledge the assistance which the right hon.baronet has given me and I regret I am unable to accept his Amendment. The whole object of this Bill is to make the organisation which is to deal with theAir Service equal in all respects with the established organisations associated with the Navy and the Army. But it is not contemplated to appoint the Finan- •cial Secretary until the Under-Secretary is so over-worked that it will be necessary to give him assistance. We think, however, the proposal should be part andparcel of this Bill, and that we should not be under the necessity to come down to this House later on and ask for powers to make the appointment. I trustmy right hon. friend will extend his kindness a little bit further and not press his Amendment. Sir F. Banbury : I am obliged to my hon. and gallant friend, but I will notwithdraw the Amendment, as I would prefer to have it negatived. We are told it is not proposed to appoint this additional Under-Secretary, althoughpower is asked to make the appointment, and that the reason for asking it is to I236
Sign up to
Flight Digital Magazine
Flight Print Magazine
Airline Business Magazine
E-newsletters
RSS
Events
