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Aviation History
1917
1917 - 1261.PDF
NOVEMBER 29, 1917. Major Baird 1 We do in Clause 3, which makes it perfectly clear that we getthese men. This clause is designed to deal with a unit of the Territorial Force and include it in the Reserve. There is only one unit of the kind existingto-day. The rest of the Auxiliary Force will obviously have to be created when the war stops. It does not affect the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in anyshape or form. They are not included. Amendment negatived. Mr. Speaker: The amendment standing in the name of the hon. member(Mr. Billing) as to carrying His Majesty's mails is either not necessary or has already been disposed of by the decision of the House on the question ofservice. Mr. Billing : On a point of order. The question of carrying mails was purelyand simply introduced by me as an illustration of the necessity of changing the name. Commander Bellairs: May I suggest that it is perfectly possible for the AirForce to carry mails under this Bill. The Navy carry mails, and the War Office may be called upon to protect trains or run trains with mails or to do any-thing of that kind. Mr. Billing : This is not a question of carrying mails in war time. This is aquestion of a mail service in peace time, which is a different proposition alto- gether to the carrying of mails in war time. Mr. Speaker: There is nothing to prevent His Majesty's ships carrying mailsin peace time, and the same applies in this case. Clause 8.— Establishmnei of Air Council.)... Mr. Billing : I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (i), to insert the words" It shall be lawful for the Board of Admiralty and the Army Council respec- tively to nominate an associate member for the Air Council, which membersshall have the right to take part in all discussion and vote on all measures." It has not been made very clear exactly what are the powers of the AirService. It has not been made very clear whether the Air Council will retain control, either direct or indirect, of the members of the Air Service whoare attached to the Grand Fleet or to the Army respectively; and it has not been made clear at all whether the guns and machines and the flying officersof the Navy who decide not to avail themselves of transfers or attachment are to be permitted by or under the Admiralty to carry out the functions of gun-spotting or scouting for the Grand Fleet. There is nothing in this Bill, so far as I can see, to prevent the Lords of the Admiralty building an aeroplane andasking one of their officers to fly it in the interests of the Grand Fleet. This amendment is down to provide that on the Air Council which it is proposedshall have control over, or at least a certain right of interference with, the aeronautical impedimenta, on sea or land, with the Army in the field or theGrand Fleet respectively, the Army and the Navy shall have a representative on that Council to make representations to the Council in the interests of theGrand Fleet and the Army respectively. Mr. Harcourt: I beg to second the amendment. Major Baird : I cannot accept this amendment. The Government are fullyalive to the necessity of keeping the closest possible touch between the Army and Navy and the Air Forces. It has been stated quite clearly that the mainbusiness of the Air Council would be to co-ordinate the Air Forces of the two Services. The hon. member did not appreciate the competition of the AirCouncil as it is now proposed. This Council will discharge its duties in relation to the Army and Navy, and obviously means will have to be taken to keep theclosest possible touch between all three Services. I do not think that the method suggested by the hon. member is necessarily the best method. Thereis nothing whatever to stop the Air Council inviting the Admiralty and the War Offiee to send representatives to consult with them. Undoubtedly consulta-tions will be of daily, indeed, hourly occurrence, but it is essential in the interests of efficiency to leave it to the Air Council to decide the best methodsto adopt. Question put, " That those words be there inserted in the Bill."The House divided : Ayes, o ; Noes, 143. Mr. Pringle : I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words" Provided that no member of the Air Council shall be financially interested in any undertaking which supplies aeroplanes, aeroplane engines, or parts thereofto the Government." I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon. friend the member for WestFife (Mr. Adamson). It was moved in the Committee stage, and gave rise to an interesting discussion. The result of that discussion was that the hon. andgallant gentleman who is in charge of the Bill, seeing the strong support his proposal received in Committee, said the matter would be considered beforethe Report stage. I do not desire to recapitulate what was put forward in support of the proposal in the course of that Debate, but I think it is to theadvantage of the House that I should very briefly indicate what the main argu- ments were. Nobody, of course, seeks to disparage the value of services renderedto the country during the war by business men who have given their services to various Government Departments. There have been instances in which valuablehelp has been received, not only by the Air Service, but by the Ministry of Munitions and by the War Office, from business men, and consequently nobodywishes to prevent the best business and technical skill being at the disposal of the Government. Nor is it intended to discourage in any way those men whohave served on the existing Air Board, or to suggest that their action has in any degree been improper. The reason for putting forward this proposal inconnection with the Air Service is that the Air Service is in that stage which places a man who has business interests in a position of peculiar difficultywhen he accepts a post in the Government. In the first place, the Air Service, more than any other, is in the experimental stage. You have continuouslya series of improvements being brought into operation, and all sorts of questions arise in respect of royalties which may be payable for patents for improve-ments, and other matters. It is of the utmost importance that there should be no suggestion of financial interest on the part of those who make decisions iurespect of royalties that may be payable. But the further question arises as to the likelihood of trials being given to new inventions, where those con-nected with the Air Board might happen to be financially interested in machines which at the present time are being turned out for the Government. That,I think, is a matter of extreme importance. It is obviously essential that in our Air Service we should have an open door to every possible improvement.It is necessary that our airmen may have the best possible machines at their service. Mr. Harcourt: I beg to second the Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Bonar Law): I certainly can find nofault either with the length or the tone of the speeches which have been made in support of this Amendment. But the Government cannot accept it—mostemphatically cannot accept it—and, indeed, I am of the opinion that those who support it, support it without any clear idea of the conditions, or know-edge, of those industries which are now being carried on. This proposal really goes very much further than the rule which was laid down by the late Sir HenryCampbell-Bannerman as to directorships, which has since been adopted. The rule in regard to these appointments was that members of the Governmentwere not to be directors of companies ; but it was clearly understood that that rule did not apply to the private businesses of the gentlemen themselves. Itmust be obvious to the House that that is a right distinction, otherwise it would mean that no business man could ever become a member of the Governmentuntil he had absolutely given up his business. This proposal really goes to this length, not that a man has to give up directorships, but if he should have abusiness of his own, which, by any possibility, may come in contact with the kind of matter with which he is dealing for the Government, he must eithercease to serve the Government or must give up his business. That is a curious Suggestion to be entertained by the House of Commons. I know that from thevery beginning of the war I myself have taken up the view, and have expressed it often—and every time I have expressed it I have bad the approval, so faras I could judge, of the whole House—that this country possesses in our busi- ness men a mine of capacity, and especially of organising ability, which it wasthe first duty of the Government to bring into its service in the conduct of the war. Personally, I believe that the tremendous e0ort which has been made inthis country in organising peaceful institutions for the purpose of war is one Of the most wonderful things that has ever happened in the history ot the world.I believe that that would have been absolutely impossible but for the assistance which the Government has gradually got more and more from practical busi-ness men who have been carrying on organisations in this country. When you say you want business men, you mean you want business men with specialknowledge of particular things, and it is almost impossible to get men with that special knowledge unless they have been engaged in businesses which aremore or less connected with manufactures. The idea that a man should be asked to give up his business, or else cease to serve the State, seems to me tobe quite absurd. Obviously, however, if he is giving his whole time—and most of these gentlemen are—to the service of the State, they cannot be engagedin conducting their own businesses. To say that they have to give up their businesses means that when the war is over they will have lost not merelytheir profit, whatever that means, but have lost the whole occupation which has been made the business and work of their life.Mr. Billing : A most improper suggestion! Mr. Bonar Law: The hon. Member is not very quick to understand what Isaid. I did not state that after the war they would not merely lose their profits if they gave up their businesses, but lose the occupation which is part of theirlives. Nobody could ask anyone to come under any such obligations. Mr. Billing : Conscription has done it! Mr. Bonar Law: I put that as a general proposition. I venture, however,to say something more. I thoroughly sympathise with the feeling of the House, that, so far as possible, any suspicion of private interest should beavoided. I am perfectly in favour of any plan that you can lay down which will secure that result, and which does not have one or two effects : which does notsuggest suspicion on the part of .this House as to the motives of these men—of whom I myself can name scores—who are not only giving their service, but suffer-ing great financial loss in order to help the country at this time. Therefore, I approve any restriction which does not suggest that suspicion. I approveany suggestion which does not deprive the country of men who are specially needed at a time like this. Within these lines I shall be perfectly ready to go.It is the custom, I know, as regards the Ministry of Munitions—I am not sure about other Departments, but it is a very good custom—that every businessman should make a declaration to the Secretary of the Department of what are his interests. That is a good arrangement. It is good from the point of viewof the Minister; he knows exactly the position. It is good from the point of view of the business man : he shows that he is concealing nothing, that every-thing is open, and everybody knows exactly what they are going to do. While I say that, I do not myself rely upon that as a protection. I have said manytimes in this House, and I repeat it now, that my own opinion is, if Government Departments are dealing with business men in the way of bargaining, in ninecases out of ten the business man will get the bes* of it. I have spent the better part of my life in business. For seventeen years I have been associated withthe House of Commons. I know what are the standards of honour, and all the rest of it, of business men. With my matured experience I venture to saythis, that though the point of view is a different view, in my belief the standard of honour of business men is not lower than the standard here. What I relyupon in these matters is this : If you go to a business man, not to bargain but to say to him, " We ask you to act for the State, and we trust you," I ventureto state here that in 99 cases out of 100 that trust will never be abused. What is more, that is not merely what one might expect from one's peace-time experience,but we have had an immense experience of it in this war. I know of no case where that trust has been abused. I know scores of cases where men have givennot merely of their time, but given of their money, in order to have the privilege of helping the country at a time when the country needed their service. So muchfor the general situation. I wish the House to consider this particular case. This Amendment is con-cerned not merely with this Board. It the principle ot this Amendment be adopted it would have to be adopted all round. The result would be that Ido not know how many men serving us in the War Office and the Ministry of Munitions would be compelled to give up what they are doing. I wish the Houseto consider the matter as regards this particular case. It applies only to one man. There is only one man who can be affected by this particular Amendment.The only man who can be affected is Sir William Weir. Mr. Pringle : No, no ! Mr. Bonar Law: Absolutely. Only one man who is on the Air Board. Ifthis Amendment be passed, what is the position ? As it happens, I have, ever siuce I have been a member of the Government, taken the keenest interest inthe Air Service. What I am saying now is not something got up in order to make this speech. It is the knowledge of over two years. Sir William Weir is the lifeand sou! of the Supply Department of the Air Service. I do not know anyone who is indispensable. I do not believe in that doctrine. But I do say this :It he were to leave his present post it would be a calamity to the Air Service. What is his position ? Before the war he had nothing to do with aeroplanesin any shape or form. The Director-General at that time went down to Glasgow, where he had personal connections, to try aDd get people as servants of theGovernment to undertake the work required to be done. Sir William Weir's firm undertook that work. The work which they undertook was on the basisof actual cost with 5 per cent, added. Anyone connected with manufacturing knows that if an estimate were made at an ordinary time more than 5 per cent.would be put on to the actual cost, so that I may say that practically this work is being done for nothing by this firm. I really wish this House to consider theeffect of this kind of discussion when it falls upon one man alone, and in this case it only affects one man. Mr. Pringle : I raised this discussion quite impersonally. While IJknew SirWilliam Weir was connected with the Board, I made no reflection whatever on him. Mr. Bonar Law : I quite realise that, and I do not suggest that there is any-thing ot the kind. Mr. Billing : I should like to associate myself with that. I made no personalimputation. Mr. Bonar Law : I do not in the least think that this is a personal attack onSir William Weir. That was not the point I was dealing with, but we all know he was the only man concerned for the moment, and therefore it seemed to me, as heseemed to be directly concerned, right to ask him to come and see me yesterday. He did so, and I talked it over with him. I found that he looked upon this assomething affecting his position, and his first feeling was that he would like to be done with Government contracts altogether. I explained to him theposition, but it is not easy for an outsider to understand these things. I ex- plained to him that these questions are raised not on personal grounds, but inorder to maintain what we consider to be a right principle, and that there was nothing personal about it. But it is not so easy to make people who do notunderstand our methods realise that these points are raised, not always to maintain a principle but sometimes to annoy the Governmerit. I26I
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