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Aviation History
1919
1919 - 0251.PDF
FEBRUARY 20, 1919 ,iefill is a contrivance called the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and I should like to have from him the assurance that we shall not find in the Schedule of that Bill, which is practically undebated, the name of this Aerial Navigation Bill. General Seely: I can only speak by leave of the House, but as briefly as possible. The provisional Regulations which we shall draft, and which are the onlv ones which will appear under this Bill, will in almost all respects follow the lioes of the recommendations of the Aerial Transport Committee. I would emphasise that this is an interim measure, and that we must later on have a larger measure, which will put in the form of a law the whole of the arrangements for the regulation of flying in the same way as there are proper, regular Acts, as, for instance, the Board of Trade Act, to regulate either land transport or sea transport. I would again emphasise that this is a Bill by which alone we are enabled to give facilities for private individuals to fly. Without it they cannot fly, and it is principally for that reason that I commend it to the House. We propose that certification should be done daily by persons appointed by the manufacturers, with the approval of the Air Ministry. Thus you will not have perpetual inspection by Government Departments, which would involve an immense number of inspectors or mean that the thing would not be properly done. Mr. Joynson-Hicks : Does that mean that every machine is to be inspected and practically certified every day ? General Seely: Yes. The criticism made to me when I met the British Society of Aircraft Manufacturers was that the provision was hardly necessary, because, of course, every owner of aeroplanes must inspect them. 1 am sure it is a wise provision, and I also think it is wise to leave it to the manufac turers to make the inspection as part of theirregular duty by persons approved by the Air Ministry. Subject to that, 1 believe it will work well. By this Bill, which I hope will become an Act, we shall be able to do the things named in Clause i, but that does not by any means include any of the things which we must do if we are to have a proper code of law for the air. They must be put in the larger Bill. The question of penalties for the forging of certificates, for instance, cannot be dealt with under this Bill. The ordinary common and Statute law, as we know it, will have to be the law for the time being. If we were to attempt to make a code of law for the air, it would mean a vefy large Bill and involve very long debates. There fore, this Bill only sets ont to do that which I have described in my opening remarks, namely, to enable civilians to fly with a minimum of interference on the part of the State consistent with the public safety I will reply to Col. Moore-Bra bazon by saying that the whole object of the Air Ministry, I can assure him as long as 1 am there—and I know I can speak for my right hon. friend—will be to see that the State helps and does not hinder, that it does its utmost to encourage new designs of every kind, that it does not profess to be a grandmother in any sense, and that all restrictions possible shall be removed. Wc are determined the State shall only endeavour to open the way to skill and energy. It will not try to hamper or thwart independence of thought or action on the part of those engaged. When I came across the Regulations drawn up in the ordinary form, in which, following the precedent in regard to land craft, it laid it down that aircraft should be examined as to its suitability and safety, 1 struck out the word " suitability," because it seemed to me that the State had nothing to do with that. If somebody proposes to fly from here to Australia we should be only too delighted to help them in every way consistently with the general safety. If they want to fly on a kind of machine entirely new to ns which we may think ill-adapted for the purpose we shall not stop them so long as we are satisfied that the machine is reasonably safe. We shall have nothing more to say on that point. As to the activities of the Aircraft Ministry, we intend to give the fullest information in our power as to new discoveries, making, of course, exceptions in regard to military secrets, but the public will be at liberty to take out their own patents and keep their own secrets. That seems to be peculiarly the duty of the State in this entirely new form of locomotion. Lieut.-Col. Moore-Brabazon : May they build machines without submitting designs to the Air Ministry ? ^General Seely : Certainly. We shall only insist that they are reasonably sale, as is done in the case of ships at sea. We propose to follow exactly the precedent set in that case. If a man chooses to build a vessel, however fantastic in appearance or design, if it is reasonably safe the Board of Trade makes no objection. The State must do its duty to see that there is reason able safety. There were three definite points put to me by my hon. friend the Member for Leith (Capt. Wedgwood Benn). The first was as to pioneer routes. The opening of pioneer routes is done by the military at the present time, and if the State is going to do it, it will be the Royal Air Force that will take the duty on. At the present time we can do what we please within the limits imposed by Parliament with military and naval aviation, and if the Treasury approves of the expenditure necessary for opening up new- routes, say, from Cairo to Kurrachi, this Bill will not help us, but it will enable people to begin experimental flying. With regard to certificates for machines which are not to carry passengers, I have been asked if every body is to be entitled to break his own neck. I say undoubtedly be is so entitled. Alter all, the risk to those below is similar only to the risk people have ol being run over by motor cars. I do not think it is necessary to require any form of inspection of machines to be flown by men themselves, nor is there any need that they should have certificates, as is requisite in the case of those who are going to carry passengers, goods and, it may be, mails. The principle that you must take care of yourself is a good one. We look forward to people doing in the future what they did in the early days of flying. They will really be pioneers. They will strike out entirely new lines, making machines to their own designs—designs which all sorts of wise people may think to be useless and unsuitable for flying. Finally, I have been asked for a very definite pledge on a very technical point. I am very glad to give It. My hon. and gallant friend wanted to be assured that this measure will not be included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, which is generally passed without debate. It shall not be put into that Bill, and I hope as I give this assurance the House will help me to pass the bigger Bill which we intend to present to Parliament and which will enable this Bill to become obsolete. I think I have answered all the questions put to me. Mr. Joynson-Hicks : There was a question with regard to liability for accidents. Are we going to do away with the common law question of negli gence ? Suppose I am killed by an aeroplane from above, will my executors have to establish negligence on the part of the aeroplanist or would compensa tion be given merely because I was killed ? General Seely: I put that point to the Attorney-General, and he was unable to answer it. I do not know how It stands. I think probably that negligence would have to be proved in the case of air accidents as In the case of land accidents. But that is merely my own obiter dictum. It is a long time since I was called to the Bar, and 1 cannot claim that it is a sound opinion. I do not think this Bill will alter the position in that respect, but I will make a note of the point. It is a subject which must be included in the larger Bill which I shall bring in at a future date. If any hon. Members have any suggestions they would like to make on the general question and will send them to me in the course of the next few weeks, I shall be most happy to consider whether they come within the scope and intentions of the larger measure, and, of course, within the agreement for international flying. It is quite likely, this being a new Service, that there are points we may have overlooked. I do not know whether it would be reasonable to ask the House to take the Committee Stage of this Bill to-night. I am entirely in the hands of the House, but, in view of the fact that we shall be discussing the larger Bill before very long, perhaps hon. Members might be not unwilling to accept this suggestion. Question put, and agreed to. Bill accordingly read a second time. On the Committee Stage, Mr. Joynson-Hicks and other Members pressed for the publication of the proposed Regulations. General Seely: I will circulate the proposed Regulations—of course, they are only proposed Regulations now—to both the Committees which are referred to, and, of course, to any hon. Members who desire to see them. General Seely agreed, if possible, to substitute the term "air" for " aerial." . At the end of Sub-section (r, b), the words, " Especially those used for the carrying of passengers, goods, and mails," were, on the motion of Capt. Benn, inserted, An amendment by Sir Henry Norman to insert in Clause (i, e), after the word " exported," the words'' and passengers transported," was agreed to. On the consideration of Clause 2, Mr. Joynson-Hicks said : I think the words : ** the purposes of the Air Council shall include all matters connected with aerial navigation " aTe a bit too wide. That power might include the manufacture of civil commercial aircraft and so forth. Then I think there ought to be some civilian members on the Air Council. I would suggest a sub-section to the Clause to the effect that there should be civilian members attached to the Air Council to act only in connection with the question of civil aviation. I think the whole of the commercial side of aviation will feel rather seriously if they are put entirely in the hands of military officers. General Seely: With regard to making the Council more civilian in character, we have a considerable number of civilians on the Air Council. I shall, I suppose, shortly be demobilised. A civilian, Lord Londonderry, who is a member of the Air Council, will represent the Department in the House of Lords. Then we have Sir Arthur Duckham and Sir James Stevenson and Sir John Hunter, who is still technically a member of the Council. Therefore there is a large civilian element, and though some of these gentlemen are there specifically for the purpose of concluding con tracts and generally winding-up the affairs of the war, one of them will certainly always remain. Mr. Joynson-Hicks: There is also the question of the very wide scope of the Clause. General Seely: I have made a note of that, and I hope the hon. Member will not press the point. I can assure him that we have no intention of going into the aircraft manufacturing business, and if we ever attempted to do it, what I say now would be brought up against us and make the thing impossible, for a Ministerial pledge is a Ministerial pledge that has to be kept as long as the Government survives. To confine it rigidly to the points specified would be inconvenient. I can assure the Committee that we have no ulterior motive whatever in making the Clause so wide. Captain Benn : I cannot support the hon. gentleman behind me in regard to this Clause, because I understand it is a Clause by which the Air Council seeks power not only to deal with all these aerial matters, but to prevent other Government Departments interfering. That seems to be an extremely desirable thing. The air is an element that must be treated as a whole, and it must be controlled as a whole, so far as the State is concerned, in the hands of one authority. The Clause and Clause 3 were agreed to. On_ patrol. A quartet of airships off Dover 251
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